Jacob Black - phase 3

Discussion on the various characters throughout the books.
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holding.out.for.jacob
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Post by holding.out.for.jacob »

uhm ok darkwaterpoisonouswell, we use examples of edward a LOT here on the jacob thread, and we're not off topic. we use them to compare, and to put things back in context. i must say your post was kind of...rude?

twilightsagaadict, we had a discussion a while back, it was me and cherryredchevy i think, who no longer posts - if you're reading this come back!!! - but we had a discussion about how the basis, the root, of all actions of all people are selfish, and whether or not the bigger intentions matter more, and so on and so forth.

like, with jake's MAIN goal, which is really and truly, indisputably, to keep bella alive, even that can come down to selfishness, because he wants her to stay alive for him. of course, he also wants it for her and for charlie and for everyone else around her, probably more so than for him. but still, you CAN say that. and we were trying to decide, does the bigger picture and intention weigh out the small bit of selfishness? and is all selfishness bad, if you look at it like that?

it may seem irrelevant to some of you, but in a jacob discussion, it's HUGE. because the number one thing we hear is that people hate him because he is SELFISH. it's the easiest thing to say about jacob, because EVERYONE is selfish, and a lot of REAL jacob-haters use that as a total crutch.
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Post by emmett_<3 »

okay okay, im done arguing about jacob black. ive seen MANY point of views. i still dont like him, but i no longer hate him. so really, i dislike him and edward, BUT IM DONE TRYING TO CHANGE OPINIONS. yup, soo i will admit that jacob isnt as bad as i originally thought, im still glad he is gone in BD, but i can understand him somewhat better.

the arguments have been fun? lol especially with meganj924 and break4jake
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twilightsagaaddict
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

well this was fun. we have our own little debate team. :D
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Post by werewolf_over_vampire_22 »

so what are y'all talking about right now?? i haven't been on in a while..haha..i'm a little lost
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Post by meganj924 »

twilightsagaaddict wrote:
meganj924 wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:and you know i can understand how he was very mature, but he was also very immature in ways that could (and did) hurt other people. and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part). i mean i know he was trying to protect bella from becoming a vampire but he never thought about it from the other side. because the fact is he would let someone change him into a vampire if it was the other way around: if bella was a vampire, and he was human and that was the only was they could be together. but in other ways he was also very mature. so was edward, so was bella. but they were all immature also. and i guess i can see what you mean by saying that you dont really realize how immature bella and edward are because it focuses the most around them. every character has been really immature. but that doesnt justify the immature things jacob does, does it? and ill be one of the first to say that edward is extremely immature. just naming the first thing that pops into head: when he took a part out of bellas engine. i mean, he could have at least just shown up in her car (which was pretty immature itself) and talked to her.
An Edward fan who agrees with me on Edward's sometimes prevalent stupidity!!!!!!!! Hoorah! Lol just kidding :). The car part COMPLETELY pissed me off. It's one thing to not want her to see her friends, but taking apart her car is just waaaaaaaaaay too controlling and childish for my taste!!!! I'm not sure that I would call Edward immature, persay... he's just extreme. Very black and white. There's not really a gray area for him (which is one of the things that bothers me about him), and he's not very good at compromising. Another part that really bothered me is when he has Alice kidnap her. I can understand why he did, but he rubbed off as such a control freak. It irked me (I'm a person who is NOT easily controlled, I don't like it when people tell me what to do).

I disagree on the "and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part)." though. I didn't find Jacob to be anymore selfish than Bella or Edward throughout Eclipse. In fact I think he's less selfish than they are. I don't find him to be very immature either, but I can see how someone would think that. I think the biggest reason he rubs off as immature is because Edward has had 100 years to perfect himself. And Edward knows human nature like the back of his hand.. that comes with being able to hear people's thoughts. So he knows how to be mature in most situations, unless he's doing something extreme and letting that get in the way of his judgment (taking apart Bella's car, about killing Jake in the tent when Jake accidentally fell on Bella, having Alice kidnap Bella, leaving Bella in New Moon, etc) . Plus Jake is a teenager so he's bound to be a little immature. He does a lot better than most teenage boys would, though. He's certainly a lot more mature than most of the idiots in my grade are.
thats true. i guess i do have to agree that compared to most guys he is pretty mature. and i agree about your examples about edwards extremes, too. even him leaving her in new moon. i know he was trying to do what was best for her, but he shouldnt have gone that far. i think he should have had a real conversation with her. i really do like jacob, i just like edward more. and the thing with edward is that i think he is mature, but the way he tries to accomplish mature things is immature. i dont know how to put it. its sort of like you said. he goes to extremes.
EXACTLY! Thank you! It's Edward's nature to be extreme, so sometimes he lets that aspect of his personality cloud his judgment.

Yeah. I don't think Jake is as immature as people make him out to be... he just appears that way since he's compared to Edward.
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

we were talking about jacob being immature. that was interesting. you should read over it.
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Post by meganj924 »

DarkWaterOfAPoisonousWell wrote:
Edward does it to Bella too. She doesn't want to get married to him. She fights him the entire book. So what does he do? Kidnaps her for the night and then makes out with her to the point where she'll give in (as I remember, she says he kissed her in a way that "should be illegal" and made her all flustered). And when he finally proposed, part of her wanted to scream at him and say no. So I sort of felt like Edward tricked her into it and took advantage of the situation. I can understand why he did it, but I still think he took advantage of it. Edward pulls just as many nasty tricks.

Jacob told on the motorcycles because he thought it would be dangerous for Bella to be around Edward. He doesn't trust vampires-- it's not in his nature. Plus he hates Edward for breaking Bella's heart in the first place. He knows that he is dangerous too, but he trusts himself to not hurt her. He doesn't trust Edward with that because he doesn't know Edward. Can you blame him for being worried about his friend's welfare? If your best friend in the entire world was hanging out with vampire, wouldn't you be freaked out too?

As for when he threatened to kill himself... yeah, it bothers me too. But I don't blame him for it or hold it against him because I completely understand why he did it. He saw it as one of his last chances to finally make her realize she was in love with him too. His one last shot to save her life. So yeah, he did take advantage of the situation a little bit. But he had too. How else could he have made her see? But in the end, it worked. He got her to finally see she loved him. And that's the important thing.

Would you rather Bella have been completely unaware how she felt for Jacob, then have gotten married, turned into a vampire, and realize 100 years later that she loves Jacob and missed out on a great life with him? It's better for her to know.

I wasn't talking about Edward...I was talking about Jacob. And what Jacob did. Not what Edward did that you didn't like...for all you know I could have hated that part too. However, I felt like the way Jacob manipulated Bella's emotions was incredibly underhanded and out of his best interest and not hers. He isn't the only person to have been manipulative throughout the three books...but he's the only one (in my opinion) who used to get what was in his best interest while knowingly hurting someone he said he loved.

I felt like in order for her best interest to be what Jacob wanted above all that his first priority would have been "keep her from being turned into a vampire." Yet, his actions didn't add up to that being his motivation...it was like to him that there was no middle ground and that Bella had to chose him or Edward and become a vampire. He didn't even once try to say..."I know you care about Edward but please don't end your life by turning into a vampire"...it was always about her choosing him instead. Which in itself is a weird idea...like he was so full of himself that she couldn't possibly not want him. Or that it wasn't possible that she could end up with someone who wasn't him or Edward.

Wanting Bella to see that she is in love with him doesn't have her best interest at heart. If Bella was ready to see that she loved him...she would see it. The whole thing has Jacob's interest at heart. And an interest that drove him to put Bella in a very difficult situation that could have gone a lot more smoothly had he actually been concerned about her feelings. It was like the idea that she had emotions other than what she felt for him wasn't possible. To her she didn't have any feelings for Jacob...but to Jacob that was all she had...which again is an interesting juxtaposition almost.

Honestly, if Jacob hadn't behaved the way he did throughout Eclipse and hadn't had Bella constantly annoyed with him...I bet she would have figured out that she liked him a lot faster because there wouldn't be this constant conflict going on between them that would cloud other feelings.

I feel like Jacob behaved horribly in Eclipse. In all honesty, I thought he was a sweet kid until he became a werewolf and became quite annoying. And it seemed like he was constantly taking out his frustration about becoming a werewolf on Bella even though it was indirectly (he was hurting those she cared about and didn't even flinch when he could see how upset she was). Sort of the way Leah was taking out her frustrations w/Sam and the whole werewolf thing on the rest of the pack.
I was pointing out that Edward makes mistakes too, that's all.

Okay. Whatever. I don't think you get Jake's character at all (not the way Stephenie Meyer intended his character to be taken, anyways) and I think you completely missed the point of what I was saying. But that's cool. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Post by Bella_S_Black »

To those people that think jake is immature- anyone would look that way compared to edward, who is 107, he practically belongs in a museum! (joke :lol: ) bella and everyone else looks really young next to him also. Edward knew Jacobs great grandfather, so that just shows how old he is.
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Post by meganj924 »

twilightsagaaddict wrote:saying that he pretty much forces her into saying yes to the proposal is dumb. he says at the end of the book that the engagement is off and that he just wants her to be happy. and she says no, that she wants to marry him. so you cant say he forced her into it!!! in the end, it came down to her happiness.
I know she wants it in the end, but she doesn't at first. She fights him on it at first. It rubbed off on me that he was manipulating her into it. I know not everyone takes it that way, but that's how it rubbed off on me. Sorry...
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Re: lol

Post by meganj924 »

emmett_<3 wrote:okay okay, im done arguing about jacob black. ive seen MANY point of views. i still dont like him, but i no longer hate him. so really, i dislike him and edward, BUT IM DONE TRYING TO CHANGE OPINIONS. yup, soo i will admit that jacob isnt as bad as i originally thought, im still glad he is gone in BD, but i can understand him somewhat better.

the arguments have been fun? lol especially with meganj924 and break4jake
Haha thanks. I like arguing :).

It's cool if you don't like him. But it's good that you feel like you understand him a little better. That's the main point of my arguments... just to get people to understand him better.
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