Jacob Black - phase 3

Discussion on the various characters throughout the books.
meganj924
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Post by meganj924 »

snarky wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:he was being selfish.
The point here is, everybody's selfish in their own way. Stone me if you like, but Edward's and Bella's selfishness way surpass Jacob's.

Their selfishness don't seem as obvious because the series is largely about them, so we tend to overlook it or explain it away as "Edward's just being protective of Bella" or "Bella needs to be with Edward forever". Doesn't make it right, though.
That's a great way to put it. It's hard to hold Jake's mistakes and in instances in which he is selfish against him when all of us make mistakes and are selfish at times too. Jake does better than a lot of people would at his age. He's definitely a lot more mature than most 16 year old boys I know... most the 16 year old guys I know still giggle when people fart and think of girls as objects instead of people. Jake only rubs off as immature because he's compared to Edward, who has had 100 years to perfect himself. Plus he can hear people's thoughts so he knows exactly what to do and say.

It makes me wonder what everyone would think if Stephenie had written the series the other way around-- if Bella and Jake had become best friends in the first book and fallen in love then and she hadn't fallen in love with Edward until the second book. Like if the roles were reversed... Twilight was about Jacob... New Moon was about Edward... would so many people still be Team Edward? I think a huge reason so many people like him was because they "fell in love with him" during Twilight. I never did so I wouldn't know. Lol :). But that's what most of my friends have told me.

I say that because it ties in with what you said... the story is written from Bella's point of view, so we often overlook Bella and Edward's flaws since Bella refuses to see anything wrong with him/their relationship and vice versa... and since it's from her point of view, people generally tend to agree with what she thinks and feels.
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twilightsagaaddict
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

meganj924 wrote:
snarky wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:he was being selfish.
The point here is, everybody's selfish in their own way. Stone me if you like, but Edward's and Bella's selfishness way surpass Jacob's.

Their selfishness don't seem as obvious because the series is largely about them, so we tend to overlook it or explain it away as "Edward's just being protective of Bella" or "Bella needs to be with Edward forever". Doesn't make it right, though.
I know.

It makes me wonder what everyone would think if Stephenie had written the series the other way around-- if Bella and Jake had become best friends in the first book and fallen in love then and she hadn't fallen in love with Edward until the second book. Like if the roles were reversed... Twilight was about Jacob... New Moon was about Edward... would so many people still be Team Edward? I think a huge reason so many people like him was because they "fell in love with him" during Twilight. I never did so I wouldn't know. Lol :). But that's what most of my friends have told me.

I say that because it ties in with what you said... the story is written from Bella's point of view, so we often overlook Bella and Edward's flaws since Bella refuses to see anything wrong with him/their relationship and vice versa... and since it's from her point of view, people generally tend to agree with what she thinks and feels.
oh my gosh. that would be interesting.
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

and you know i can understand how he was very mature, but he was also very immature in ways that could (and did) hurt other people. and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part). i mean i know he was trying to protect bella from becoming a vampire but he never thought about it from the other side. because the fact is he would let someone change him into a vampire if it was the other way around: if bella was a vampire, and he was human and that was the only was they could be together. but in other ways he was also very mature. so was edward, so was bella. but they were all immature also. and i guess i can see what you mean by saying that you dont really realize how immature bella and edward are because it focuses the most around them. every character has been really immature. but that doesnt justify the immature things jacob does, does it? and ill be one of the first to say that edward is extremely immature. just naming the first thing that pops into head: when he took a part out of bellas engine. i mean, he could have at least just shown up in her car (which was pretty immature itself) and talked to her.
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meganj924
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Post by meganj924 »

twilightsagaaddict wrote:
meganj924 wrote:
snarky wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:he was being selfish.
The point here is, everybody's selfish in their own way. Stone me if you like, but Edward's and Bella's selfishness way surpass Jacob's.

Their selfishness don't seem as obvious because the series is largely about them, so we tend to overlook it or explain it away as "Edward's just being protective of Bella" or "Bella needs to be with Edward forever". Doesn't make it right, though.
I know.

It makes me wonder what everyone would think if Stephenie had written the series the other way around-- if Bella and Jake had become best friends in the first book and fallen in love then and she hadn't fallen in love with Edward until the second book. Like if the roles were reversed... Twilight was about Jacob... New Moon was about Edward... would so many people still be Team Edward? I think a huge reason so many people like him was because they "fell in love with him" during Twilight. I never did so I wouldn't know. Lol :). But that's what most of my friends have told me.

I say that because it ties in with what you said... the story is written from Bella's point of view, so we often overlook Bella and Edward's flaws since Bella refuses to see anything wrong with him/their relationship and vice versa... and since it's from her point of view, people generally tend to agree with what she thinks and feels.
oh my gosh. that would be interesting.
I know. It's an intriguing thing to think about.

SM herself has said she thinks the reason Edward fans so heavily outweigh Jake fans is because of the order of the books. Most people came to love Edward in Twilight, so when he leaves in New Moon it came as a shock to most people. So she thinks the first time those people read New Moon, they don't take time to enjoy the middle section and just skim to the end of the book when Edward comes back. She said they don't time to "appreciate" or really "understand" Jake. Sot hen once they read Eclipse, they hate Jake, because they never really grasped his character in New Moon. So she recommends everyone read New Moon twice. (This is all on her website, lol).

So yeah. I think it would be interesting if it would've happened the other way. If the first book had been about Jake and Bella becoming friends and falling in love... would everyone have "fallen in love" with Jake then, like they did with Edward in Twilight? Then have the second book about her falling in love with Edward instead of Jake. Would the tables be turned, or would things still be how they are now?

I know it's a little too late for that since the books are out... but it's just interesting to think about. If things had gone the other way, and Bella's perspective had been a little different in the first book, I wonder what would have happened fanwise. Ya know?

ANYWAYS the reason I brought all that up was because of Snarky's perspective comment. In case any of you were wondering why I brought up such a random topic :).
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Post by break4jake »

meganj924 wrote:
snarky wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:he was being selfish.
The point here is, everybody's selfish in their own way. Stone me if you like, but Edward's and Bella's selfishness way surpass Jacob's.

Their selfishness don't seem as obvious because the series is largely about them, so we tend to overlook it or explain it away as "Edward's just being protective of Bella" or "Bella needs to be with Edward forever". Doesn't make it right, though.
That's a great way to put it. It's hard to hold Jake's mistakes and in instances in which he is selfish against him when all of us make mistakes and are selfish at times too. Jake does better than a lot of people would at his age. He's definitely a lot more mature than most 16 year old boys I know... most the 16 year old guys I know still giggle when people fart and think of girls as objects instead of people. Jake only rubs off as immature because he's compared to Edward, who has had 100 years to perfect himself. Plus he can hear people's thoughts so he knows exactly what to do and say.

It makes me wonder what everyone would think if Stephenie had written the series the other way around-- if Bella and Jake had become best friends in the first book and fallen in love then and she hadn't fallen in love with Edward until the second book. Like if the roles were reversed... Twilight was about Jacob... New Moon was about Edward... would so many people still be Team Edward? I think a huge reason so many people like him was because they "fell in love with him" during Twilight. I never did so I wouldn't know. Lol :). But that's what most of my friends have told me.

I say that because it ties in with what you said... the story is written from Bella's point of view, so we often overlook Bella and Edward's flaws since Bella refuses to see anything wrong with him/their relationship and vice versa... and since it's from her point of view, people generally tend to agree with what she thinks and feels.

I have thought of that too.......I think many people would be team jake if he was the main love person......*sigh* it's sad that that's how it is. that people don't understand jake because edward 'dazzled' them first. i still love edward, but jake has entered my heart and taken over it. oh well.

yaya jake-ish peeps!!!!!! (i think bella_s_black made that up in the last jake thread.....jake-ish i mean)

and it's a very good topic to consider. we've been going back to the same ones..................but who cares? if it's about jake, i'm all for it! :D
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Post by meganj924 »

^^
I agree. I think a lot more people would like Jake if the order of the story had been reversed.

Haha well thank you :). We do need to come up with some new topics, dont' we?
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Post by meganj924 »

twilightsagaaddict wrote:and you know i can understand how he was very mature, but he was also very immature in ways that could (and did) hurt other people. and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part). i mean i know he was trying to protect bella from becoming a vampire but he never thought about it from the other side. because the fact is he would let someone change him into a vampire if it was the other way around: if bella was a vampire, and he was human and that was the only was they could be together. but in other ways he was also very mature. so was edward, so was bella. but they were all immature also. and i guess i can see what you mean by saying that you dont really realize how immature bella and edward are because it focuses the most around them. every character has been really immature. but that doesnt justify the immature things jacob does, does it? and ill be one of the first to say that edward is extremely immature. just naming the first thing that pops into head: when he took a part out of bellas engine. i mean, he could have at least just shown up in her car (which was pretty immature itself) and talked to her.
An Edward fan who agrees with me on Edward's sometimes prevalent stupidity!!!!!!!! Hoorah! Lol just kidding :). The car part COMPLETELY pissed me off. It's one thing to not want her to see her friends, but taking apart her car is just waaaaaaaaaay too controlling and childish for my taste!!!! I'm not sure that I would call Edward immature, persay... he's just extreme. Very black and white. There's not really a gray area for him (which is one of the things that bothers me about him), and he's not very good at compromising. Another part that really bothered me is when he has Alice kidnap her. I can understand why he did, but he rubbed off as such a control freak. It irked me (I'm a person who is NOT easily controlled, I don't like it when people tell me what to do).

I disagree on the "and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part)." though. I didn't find Jacob to be anymore selfish than Bella or Edward throughout Eclipse. In fact I think he's less selfish than they are. I don't find him to be very immature either, but I can see how someone would think that. I think the biggest reason he rubs off as immature is because Edward has had 100 years to perfect himself. And Edward knows human nature like the back of his hand.. that comes with being able to hear people's thoughts. So he knows how to be mature in most situations, unless he's doing something extreme and letting that get in the way of his judgment (taking apart Bella's car, about killing Jake in the tent when Jake accidentally fell on Bella, having Alice kidnap Bella, leaving Bella in New Moon, etc) . Plus Jake is a teenager so he's bound to be a little immature. He does a lot better than most teenage boys would, though. He's certainly a lot more mature than most of the idiots in my grade are.
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

meganj924 wrote:
twilightsagaaddict wrote:and you know i can understand how he was very mature, but he was also very immature in ways that could (and did) hurt other people. and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part). i mean i know he was trying to protect bella from becoming a vampire but he never thought about it from the other side. because the fact is he would let someone change him into a vampire if it was the other way around: if bella was a vampire, and he was human and that was the only was they could be together. but in other ways he was also very mature. so was edward, so was bella. but they were all immature also. and i guess i can see what you mean by saying that you dont really realize how immature bella and edward are because it focuses the most around them. every character has been really immature. but that doesnt justify the immature things jacob does, does it? and ill be one of the first to say that edward is extremely immature. just naming the first thing that pops into head: when he took a part out of bellas engine. i mean, he could have at least just shown up in her car (which was pretty immature itself) and talked to her.
An Edward fan who agrees with me on Edward's sometimes prevalent stupidity!!!!!!!! Hoorah! Lol just kidding :). The car part COMPLETELY pissed me off. It's one thing to not want her to see her friends, but taking apart her car is just waaaaaaaaaay too controlling and childish for my taste!!!! I'm not sure that I would call Edward immature, persay... he's just extreme. Very black and white. There's not really a gray area for him (which is one of the things that bothers me about him), and he's not very good at compromising. Another part that really bothered me is when he has Alice kidnap her. I can understand why he did, but he rubbed off as such a control freak. It irked me (I'm a person who is NOT easily controlled, I don't like it when people tell me what to do).

I disagree on the "and the thing is that (until the end of eclipse) all he cared about was himself (for the most part)." though. I didn't find Jacob to be anymore selfish than Bella or Edward throughout Eclipse. In fact I think he's less selfish than they are. I don't find him to be very immature either, but I can see how someone would think that. I think the biggest reason he rubs off as immature is because Edward has had 100 years to perfect himself. And Edward knows human nature like the back of his hand.. that comes with being able to hear people's thoughts. So he knows how to be mature in most situations, unless he's doing something extreme and letting that get in the way of his judgment (taking apart Bella's car, about killing Jake in the tent when Jake accidentally fell on Bella, having Alice kidnap Bella, leaving Bella in New Moon, etc) . Plus Jake is a teenager so he's bound to be a little immature. He does a lot better than most teenage boys would, though. He's certainly a lot more mature than most of the idiots in my grade are.
thats true. i guess i do have to agree that compared to most guys he is pretty mature. and i agree about your examples about edwards extremes, too. even him leaving her in new moon. i know he was trying to do what was best for her, but he shouldnt have gone that far. i think he should have had a real conversation with her. i really do like jacob, i just like edward more. and the thing with edward is that i think he is mature, but the way he tries to accomplish mature things is immature. i dont know how to put it. its sort of like you said. he goes to extremes.
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break4jake
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Post by break4jake »

meganj924 wrote:^^
I agree. I think a lot more people would like Jake if the order of the story had been reversed.

Haha well thank you :). We do need to come up with some new topics, dont' we?

*sigh* oh well. i think it makes us even more special if we're able to be put through the edward thing then fall for jake. go us! :)


hmmmm......jake topics........it shouldn't be hard for us to make up another topic.....darn my unworking brain!


and i agree, edward definitely goes to extremes, he usually has good intentions, just sometimes it goes too far.

and jake is pretty dang mature! compared to other teenage boys he's super mature! the only reason he seems immature is because he's compared to edward
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Post by twilightsagaaddict »

at this rate, there should be no trouble getting to part 4!!!!! lol
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