Latin Challenge

Off topic conversation. Please read posting guidelines. No games or instant message style postings are permitted.
December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

Sorry about that... the missing post is now in place (between NoWorries and LisaCullenAZ above). While I'm taking up space here, a couple of other thoughts:
No Worries wrote:But the fact remains that, without Edward's initial choice, Bella would never gotten the opportunity to make her own. She would have been aperitif.
One minor observation here: Edward makes two critical choices in TW. The first is of course to not to kill Bella right there in Bio classs: to not make her aperitif, as you said (too funny!...). But it is the second choice which is the crucial one for their destiny as lovers: to allow himself to fall in love with Bella and to court her: to let those chips fall where they may. Without this, she would never have reached the point where there was no going back; she might always remember her obsession with that extraordinary boy her junior year at Forks, but she would have got over it. So not becoming aperitif is only the beginning of the choices Edward makes.

(Ok, here is a topic that should definitely be bracketed for later: I'm getting interested in the question of Edward's choices.... We may be inching our way towards the thought that it is really his choices that matter all along -- that his choices are necessarily the crucial ones (which is certainly what he thinks) and this is a responsibility he cannot evade. Because Bella's choices, once she has made her fateful decision (after the beach trip) that she is not turning back, look less and less like free choices... Another question: if Bella not so much choosing Edward in Eclipse as confirming her commitment to see through the choice she made long ago, what becomes of the idea that Eclipse is "about choosing love"?). Let's not switch to talking about these yet, but we might want to start thinking about them...).
Pretty Words wrote: So, that belief in turn means that I can't accept that Bella and Jake are soul mates in any sort of world.
I have to say that I agree with you that 'soul mates' isn't the phrase I would use to describe Bella and Jake. They are ideally suited to each other, natural partners or mates. But not soul mates, in the Platonic no-one-else-ever-in-any-time-or-place sense, the way Edward and Bella are, where to be apart is not just to worry how the other is feeling (as it is with Jake), but a physical ache that only resolves itself when they are united again.
Truelove1 wrote:Exactly, yes. When I first read Eclipse, I couldn't look past the excruciating details SM provided in the physical interactions between B/J. I was so caught up in being taken aback (I didn't feel that the plot progression in the prior two books had set this possibility up properly) that I could not see the point that SM was trying to get across.
I think the trouble is that Stephenie has imagined all too vividly what normal, real love could be for Bella. If she had sat down to write an ordinary love story (which she may well do someday!) rather than pursue this extraordinary fantasy that floated into her mind, Jake and Bella is how it would have gone. The more you get caught up in writing (and falling in love with) a romantic fiction, the more you might want to remind yourself what real love can also be. For the reader, though, it is distractingly clearly imagined...

Happy All Souls, everyone!
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
llovetwilight
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: California

Post by llovetwilight »

December wrote:But how about this: I say anyone would fall for Edward, but then again, faced with the reality, who but Bella would have the hardihood to look that danger in the face and say, I don't care. .

So that even if Edward's appeal is universal, it is only Bella who feels it so strongly that she will give up everything for him. Does this absolve her of having merely been dazzled? Not exactly. But her extreme susceptibility to Edward's dazzlement (and I mean here his dazzling persona as a whole, not the smouldering eyes thing, which as someone rightly pointed out, she is aware of and learning to manage) is something remarkable in itself. In that sense, yes she has fallen for him in a way that no one else would; her love for him transcends all ordinary bounds of vampire allure.
I have been kicking something around in the back of my (muddled) brain for a while now and it seems like this may be the time to throw it out to you ladies...

Perhaps, instead of saying that Bella and Edward were fated to be together and Bella's becoming a vampire is a consequence of choosing to make a life with him, we would say that Bella was intended to become immortal and falling in love with Edward was just a bonus. Hear me out for a minute...

We know that there are many curiosities about Bella, she is not the average teen. She has parents who care, but are not terribly involved. Because of that, she "was born a 35 year old woman and gets more middle-aged each year", she is much more mature than a normal girl her age. And then the little things, like her aversion to and acute awareness of blood. She is the only person who's mind is closed to Edward/Aro/Jane's abilitites. She is a "danger-magnet". She falls in love with a vampire and becomes best friends with the Alpha male of the town werewolf pack... the list goes on.

What if Bella was meant to be something more than human, and that is truly where "fate" is stepping into play in this series, we just don't know it yet. There has been much speculation as to what "power(s)" Bella will have as a vampire. Guesses that she will be the key to taking down Aro and his gang have been flying around the Lex ever since EC came out.

We know that freedom to choose love was SM's main theme for EC. Bella did have a choice, not only between the boys but between humanity and immortality. We've talked about the fact that Bella was not just crying about saying goodbye to Jake at the end of EC, she was grieving for the loss of her human life, her family, and all of the pain she had caused those she loved.

Just as Jake was born a werewolf, always meant to turn; is it possible that what Bella "doesn't have a choice" about is that she is supposed to be something more? That in the end, staying human was never going to be enough (even if she hasn't realized it yet)once she was aware of the mythical world out there? That she too, is supposed to belong in the non-rational realm that Edward and the Cullens (and jake) do?

Just a thought... I hope this hasn't come out as completely bonkers... :shock:
LisaCullenAz wrote:I said this once somewhere else but I got eaten alive: Is it really dazzling if you know about it and you allow it to happen?
I think there is a difference between the way Edward dazzles Bella and the effect he has on say, Mrs. Cope.

With Mrs. Cope, she doesn't know what hit her. She is putty in his hands and willing to do whatever he asks. Edward can read her mind and what he says is exactly on cue...

With Bella it isn't the same. Sure, he is sexy and she is fully aware of it. And there is the "breath". But, unlike poor unsuspecting Mrs. Cope, Bella is fully aware that these things have an effect on her, which in some ways defeats the purpose, right? I've mentioned this somewhere else.... but if Bella was able to resist here:
"His eyes did nothing to help my resolve. They were black fire. They smoldered.
"Why," he asked again, his voice low and rough. "I love you. I want you. Right now."


then I think she could never have been dazzled beyond being capable of making her own decision. I would have caved in an instant if Edward had been smoldering his eyes at me in that meadow!!! :wink:
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

[img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/ouisa/life-now1.gif[/img]
Thanks for the pretty banner Ouisa!
December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

ILT wrote:And there is the "breath"
no no...not "The Breath....."!!

I'll have to think more about the idea of Bella somehow converging on a superhuman destiny. My off the cuff feeling is that it has to be the other way round -- this story begins with two lovers in a meadow, and all the foreshadowings of Bella being unusual are only confirmation that she was made to be able to return Edward's love.

As for dazzling being different if you are aware of it: I agree with both ILT and Lisa. It is a measure of Bella's own strength of mind (and purpose!) that she doesn't lose her head completely in the meadow at the end of Eclipse (and I'm sort of asking myself what exactly Edward thought he was doing there -- is this intentional? does he know by now precisely how susceptible but also capable of resistance Bella is? Is he trying to seduce her? Or is this just passion carrying both of them away to the brink but not over it?). Certainly by this stage, what we have here is a relationship of two lovers who know each other increasingly well, not an enchantment. But at the beginning...I'm thinking of the whole package, not just the smouldering eyes, and it seems to me that Bella is helpless to resist Edward's charms, even though she knows she is helpless around him and it annoys the hell out of her. ("I didn't want to feel what I knew I would feel..."). So not as clueless as Mrs Cope, but still under a spell, maybe?

sanguis vincit lamias sed amor vincit omnia
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
Visitor
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 12:01 am

Post by Visitor »

Ummmm. . . Hi. I go by Visitor. And I too seek shelter from the Twilight storm. May I join in?

. . . Why do I feel like I've just been inducted into Dumbledore's Army? :lol:
llovetwilight wrote:I've mentioned this somewhere else.... but if Bella was able to resist here:
"His eyes did nothing to help my resolve. They were black fire. They smoldered.
"Why," he asked again, his voice low and rough. "I love you. I want you. Right now."


then I think she could never have been dazzled beyond being capable of making her own decision. I would have caved in an instant if Edward had been smoldering his eyes at me in that meadow!!! :wink:
Believe it or not, I used to be slightly concerned by Bella's resistance in the meadow 8) . At the time, I was still reeling from all the Jacob stuff, so I saw Bella's hesitancy there as left-over unresolved feelings for Jacob. But happily, SM addressed that briefly in the recent online chat. When asked about whether Bella was being truthful in her reasons for stopping Edward in the meadow, she said, "Bella was being entirely truthful in the meadow. Her reasons had nothing to do with Jacob at all." I must admit. I am pretty happy about that. It's no big secret that I've been looking at Bella kind of sideways since reading Eclipse, but this affirmation by SM has helped me to see things in a different light. Because it makes me truly believe that Bella's love for Jacob can not/could not be any where close to her love for Edward if it truly only took her a night to grieve his loss. Because if SM is to be believed (and I can't see why not), Bella meant what she said about wanting to get married first and wanting to do things the right way as opposed to what some others have insinuated, which is that she only made all those concessions in the end because she was still distraught and still trying to please Edward.

And about the whole dazzling effect, I'll just echo the majority here and say that I don't believe the dazzle has that great of an effect on Bella anymore. I see the dazzle as more of a personality trait or ingrained characteristic than some crazy visual aphrodisiac. Similar to the way I see Bella's clumsiness. Clumsiness is just one of the things Edward loves about Bella. He appreciates it because it's a central part of who she is. The same is true for his dazzle. It's a trait that he has that Bella adores. It's like having a spouse who's very handsome or very well-built. You may experience/see these characteristics everyday, but you still can't help but swoon from time to time. :wink:

Sooo . . . about this whole Latin thing . . . I went to public schools, so I have no idea what anyone is saying. How can I be down? :oops:
"Why did she have to come here? Why did she have to exist? Why did she have to ruin the little peace I had in this non-life of mine? Why had this aggravating human ever been born? She would ruin me."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[b]"So the witnesses first then."[/b]

[i]Edward Cullen, MS[/i]
__________________________________
Adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis.
December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

Welcome Visitor!!
. . . Why do I feel like I've just been inducted into Dumbledore's Army?
shhhhhhh.
Sooo . . . about this whole Latin thing . . . I went to public schools, so I have no idea what anyone is saying. How can I be down?
We're all cheating like crazy. Shhh, again.

I'm glad Stephenie has had the chance to set straight some of the things that have been worrying people. As you know, I'm such a true believer (or maybe just simpleminded) that it never crossed my mind for an instant that Bella was thinking about Jake...

And do you know why? ding! December has a revelation -- it's because Bella's voice is terribly honest. It's so direct, unmediated, a straight pipeline to the most important thing she is sensing or feeling in that instant. One of the reasons the narration has this peculiar, pared-down simplicity: next to no description or reflections or well, detail really. Bella is just reporting what is looming on her horizon: a sudden qualm, a gasp of relief, the sound of someone breathing, the pressure of someone's arms around her, whatever. So if what we hear about is, well, everything we hear about in the meadow, I've alway assumed that is all there is to know about Bella.
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
NoWorries
Teaching Eric Social Graces
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:05 pm
Location: Calling the dog catcher

Post by NoWorries »

Psssst . . . Visitor: you can cheat (as I did -- sorry professor!) by googling the phrase :lol: :lol: :lol:

Bella is a better woman than I; poor Edward wouldn't have known what hit him, let alone had the wherewithal to cutsey-swoon me. So keeping that in mind, I enjoy the impression that Bella's "fate" may have been to be the woman who could get past the dazzle. There's a clear difference in her reaction versus the reactions of others in his presence.

That said, there is the issue of the "overall package". While I do think that that likely had an effect on inspiring Bella's, shall we say, initial curiosity, about Edward, I don't think that it was strong enough -- once confronted with Edward, The Person -- to affect her decision-making. If it were all about the general Vampire Package (non-gutter sense) Dazzle, then Bella could just as easily have fallen for Jasper and/or Emmet, the attractiveness and intrigue of each she recognizes. And yet it is Edward who, from afar, immediately captivates her. Despite the similar, potentially dazzling attributes of his brother, it was Edward and only Edward from the get-go. She found herself intrigured by him. That right there diminishes the importance of the overall dazzle for me.

This of course, takes me into the dreaded philosophical arena of Edward's personhood. As some of the greatest thinkers in history haven't been able to nail this one down, definitively, I'll not really try :lol: I will instead say that Edward's personality is clearly disparate from that of his brothers and that that is surely part of what Bella responds to. So even though he dazzles by virtue of what he is, he captivates Bella by virtue of who he is.

Visitor -- hooray! I was soooooo psyched (launches into aspect of own personhood which is most closely akin to 12 year old fangirl) to get confirmation of Bella's honesty in the meadow. Whew! I mean, I had finally become okay with the overall tone of the ending -- and I was keeping the faith -- but to have some sort of actual affirmation that Bella really "gets it" was . . . magical.

I think there was loads more I want to say, but a whiny, hyperactive mutt (not Jake) is distracting me. Time for a walk.
I survived The Great Dog Snog and all I got was this lousy sigline.
[i]astra inclinant, non necessitant[/i]
NoWorries
Teaching Eric Social Graces
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:05 pm
Location: Calling the dog catcher

Post by NoWorries »

December wrote:
No Worries wrote:But the fact remains that, without Edward's initial choice, Bella would never gotten the opportunity to make her own. She would have been aperitif.
One minor observation here: Edward makes two critical choices in TW. The first is of course to not to kill Bella right there in Bio classs: to not make her aperitif, as you said (too funny!...). But it is the second choice which is the crucial one for their destiny as lovers: to allow himself to fall in love with Bella and to court her: to let those chips fall where they may. Without this, she would never have reached the point where there was no going back; she might always remember her obsession with that extraordinary boy her junior year at Forks, but she would have got over it. So not becoming aperitif is only the beginning of the choices Edward makes.
That's quite true -- I've been thinking all day of the point at which I believe Bella is in too deep, relatively speaking, and I admit I'm crippled, as I've shipped my book off to my mother after allowing it to languish for an inexcusable period of time. But certainly that point, for Bella, comes after the initial Bio incident. Thank you for pointing that out :)

Question though: can we really say that Edward courts Bella? His version of "letting the chips fall" seems to be little more than allowing Bella to continue insinuate herself upon him as she attempts to get to know/figure him out. He doesn't do much other than allow himself to occupy the same space as her -- and then, of course, there's the Port Angeles incident. Granted, that's epic from someone who has so much to protect, but I wanted to clarify that point to see if we were on the same page re: courtship.

I'm involved, at the present in big time martini drink-- I mean, hair splitting, in an attempt to grapple for understandings which salvage my sanity. This one just got thrown into the mental fray.

By the way . . . Ilovetwilight -- I really like your interpretation. I agree that there's always been something a bit "off" about Bella. There was a camp, pre-Ec, which supposed that we might perhaps find out something to this effect, and I could never really write them off, even though -- for some reason -- I could never totally get on board, either. I think my feelings on this particular reading is that there's certainly ample hind-sight evidence for me to remain unsurprised if this proves to be the case. What I haven't been able to work out is to what extent coincidence and necessity (for the purposes of a fantasty storyline) play in this interpretation. But I like it :D
I survived The Great Dog Snog and all I got was this lousy sigline.
[i]astra inclinant, non necessitant[/i]
indi
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 353
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:03 pm
Location: looking around from Edward's POV
Contact:

Post by indi »

Solem smile saggitas petivit.

He sought the sun with arrows...

-Hercules

I think, anyway.^^

Ok, here's a challenge. Who can translate this without the help of a translator?

Si quid est in me ingeni, iudices, quod sentio quam sit exiguum, aut si qua exercitatio dicendi, in qua me non infitior mediocriter esse versatum, aut si huiusce rei ratio aliqua ab optimarum artium studiis ac disciplina profecta, a qua ego nullum confiteor aetatis meae tempus abhorruisse, earum rerum omnium vel in primis hic A. Licinius fructum a me repetere prope suo iure debet.

So this is a random passage taken from Cicero's Pro Archia Poeta Oratio. I'll even give you a bigger hint. It's the first passage of the Exordium. See if you can translate this without a translator! Lol.
<a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1163883/" target="_blank"><img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/ood/amnesia-1.png"></a>
<center><a href="http://sera-phyn.com/default.aspx">SeraPhyn's site</a> | <a href="http://www.ramblingsandthoughts.com/twilight/index.php">Pel's site</a> | <a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/~redeem">Fanfic Home</a>
llovetwilight
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: California

Post by llovetwilight »

NoWorries wrote:If it were all about the general Vampire Package (non-gutter sense) Dazzle, then Bella could just as easily have fallen for Jasper and/or Emmet, the attractiveness and intrigue of each she recognizes. And yet it is Edward who, from afar, immediately captivates her. Despite the similar, potentially dazzling attributes of his brother, it was Edward and only Edward from the get-go. She found herself intrigured by him. That right there diminishes the importance of the overall dazzle for me.
Thank you for mentioning this... If you can believe that there was actually MORE to my rambling post from above... this was it. Bella is interested in Edward from the very beginning... and we know that the other Cullen men are very "dazzley" (is that a new word?!!) themselves!

Amor vincit omnia
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

[img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/ouisa/life-now1.gif[/img]
Thanks for the pretty banner Ouisa!
December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

NoWorries wrote:Question though: can we really say that Edward courts Bella?
Well, obviously the answer can't be a straightforward yes because the boy is a bundle of ambivalences. But...he does ask her out. It's the first thing he does, the morning after he has decided he's going to stop trying to be good: invite Bella to go with him to Seattle. The excursion that eventually becomes their trip to the Meadow. And while everything he says is hedged about by caution, every concession balanced by a sort of recoil -- I mean he is wildly ambivalent about every step he takes, because he doesn't want to tempt her into getting closer to him and yet he just can't tear himself away from her either -- he continues to reach out to her. He asks her to sit with him at lunch. He takes her out to supper at Port Angeles (yes, there are other reasons, but it's clear how much he wants to as well). He starts driving her to school in the mornings. He admits to her all kinds of irreparably dangerous secrets. (Of course this is half letting her come closer and half hoping it will drive her away and his dilemma will be taken care of). He knows he shouldn't, and still he does it, and she is only more and more drawn under his spell. So, yes, I think it is courtship. An odd and reluctant courtship, but nevertheless a courtship.
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 34 guests