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LisaCullenAZ
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Post by LisaCullenAZ » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:43 am

The break with Jacob was a little too close to the end for me and while I believe that B&E are going to be together and she is happy with her choice, my heart was still a little too raw at the end.
You know, I think this is a big reason why so many people had PTES. (Post Traumatic Eclipse Syndrome)

If the mess with Jacob had happened somewhere in the middle of Eclipse, and then there was more time to digest it... and more time at the end of the book to resolve it and be reassured that Bella was happy with her choice... and solid in her choice? I wonder if less people would have felt like throwing their books across the room. Like many of us did. Myself included (truly!) :)
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NoWorries
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Post by NoWorries » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:20 pm

Perhaps I should have stated my position as "radical pro-bite" -- I'm the Ralph Nader of the pro-bite camp. Or, to quote Muse: "I want it now."

Even if it's not the absolute last means by which Bedward can have their happily ever after, I still want Bella changed. I would be hopelessly disappointed by human Bella + Edward, and I'd throw a tantrum of Volturi proportions if Edward became human. Even if there's some other option of which we are not presently aware, I. Want. Bella. Changed.

:D


As far as TW/NM/EC, and where I could happily have ended the story, I'll re-state that yes, I would have been happy with just TW. But if NM had to exist, I'd still be happy with the story ending there. I would emphatically NOT be happy with an EC end for the series, however, because while I thought it brought Bedward to a good place, I'm still a bit raw and a bit worried. And since I've just been dragged through all the muck, I believe that I should be allowed to wallow in the
wedding.




EDIT: echo1 I missed your above post and restated, practically verbatim, your position! :)

LizaCullenAZ -- PTES *tee hee!* it's a perfect description!
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Visitor
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Post by Visitor » Thu Nov 08, 2007 12:43 pm

llovetwilight wrote:Would you have been happy with only Twilight? Only TW and NM? What if the series stopped at EC? If you had your way, would a some-what open ending have been enough, or do you need the entire story "wrapped up in a bow"?
I'd of been good with TW the way it ended. I'm basing my response on the feelings I had after reading TW, not on the information it left me with. I got my best warm fuzzies from TW, so while it would have been nice to find out the details of how B&E managed to make it work, my imagination would have sufficed in filling in any missing pieces. I think I would have been ok with NM's ending too. Not with the progression of the story itself, but with the feelings I had after reading it. Bella's NM epiphany . . . Edward's declaration of love . . . yup! Great warm fuzzies in that one! Now with Eclipse, I don't think I'm making any major announcements when I say that I would not have been happy with the series ending there. The fuzzies at the end of that novel were not very warm at all! It would have slowly driven me mad trying to figure out the truth of Bella's feelings (For anyone confused, I've harbored a certain ill feeling for Eclipse since its release, because in my opinion it contradicted much of Bella's insightful narration in the first 2 books. I have since come to terms with this, but I don't believe that I'll be completely at ease until BD reaffirms everything I was made to believe in Books 1 and 2). Besides, I agree with LindsAy in this point: Now that these newer concepts have been introduced (Marriage, Volturi, Denali etc. . . ), I want to see them all dealt with and/or resolved in some shape form or fashion before I can feel satisfied.

And did SM really say that she was going to wrap up Bella's story in a "bow"? Bows are nice, right? They're pretty and frilly and happy, right? I hope she did say bow! I'll hang on to that description for a while if you don't mind . . . :)

OFF TOPIC: December and I had a PM'd conversation the other day about . . . you guessed it . . . Edward! This was around the time we were discussing (or I was ranting) about Edward's complacency in certain parts of Eclipse. In our PM's, December asked me a question about Edward's jealousy that I replied to in probably too much detail. Anyway, she though it might be useful for me to share my answer with the rest of the class :wink: , so here goes . . .


DECEMBER'S QUESTION
"How much do you think this sudden change is Edward's shrewd assessment that it's the only way the situation will eventually straighten itself out: Bella needs to figure out about Jake for herself? In other words, ordinary real world wisdom about handling jealousy. And how much it is about the wider, more serious, vampire-specific issues: his ambivalence about whether Bella's happy ending mightn't be falling in love and living a mortal happily ever after with someone human..."

MY ANSWER
"I think Edward's change is the result of both things you mention. On one hand, he is jealous. And as he begins to understand what jealousy is, I can imagine that he becomes slightly appalled with himself. On the other hand, he sees in Jacob a potential for that plan B he was after when he left in NM (Bella moves on. Bella stays human.). I think these complicated thoughts have the result of freezing him in place. It's kind of like standing outside of a tragedy and watching it unfold. You see it happening, yet you feel completely incapable of stopping it. Besides, if you could stop it, how would you do it? Would you give in to the new-found jealousy and lash out at the person you love and demand that she choose you? Or do you give in to your need to keep her human and leave her in the care of plan B? Neither action would be acceptable, because each action is in direct conflict with the other. So what else is there for you to do? Easy . . . nothing. You stand still and let the chips fall where they may. You become a part of the scenery, and try to become benign and appear as unaffected as you possibly can. Hence, all the moments that Bella thinks she sees panic, or sadness in Edward's face. Edward was being Bella's scenery. The backdrop to which she could behave almost selfishly without constantly having to worry about losing him. Because unlike Jacob, Edward didn't want Bella to suffer through her choice. He didn't want her to feel any pain or regret. *Sigh* I get giddy just thinking about it. . . :) Of course once Bella begins to see herself and the selfishness of her actions, it's as if the sword that Edward had been silently taking for her suddenly slices through him and into her too. Because by the end of Eclipse, Bella is no longer unaffected by her actions. She is forced to see the situation and see herself . . . and suffer. Edward doesn't make her feel worse by coming down on her or yelling at her (even when she asks him to) because the sword impales them both. Her suffering affects his own. Have I made any sense?"
"Why did she have to come here? Why did she have to exist? Why did she have to ruin the little peace I had in this non-life of mine? Why had this aggravating human ever been born? She would ruin me."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[b]"So the witnesses first then."[/b]

[i]Edward Cullen, MS[/i]
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TrueLove1
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Post by TrueLove1 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:36 pm

Hence, all the moments that Bella thinks she sees panic, or sadness in Edward's face. Edward was being Bella's scenery. The backdrop to which she could behave almost selfishly without constantly having to worry about losing him. Because unlike Jacob, Edward didn't want Bella to suffer through her choice. He didn't want her to feel any pain or regret. *Sigh* I get giddy just thinking about it. . . Smile Of course once Bella begins to see herself and the selfishness of her actions, it's as if the sword that Edward had been silently taking for her suddenly slices through him and into her too. Because by the end of Eclipse, Bella is no longer unaffected by her actions. She is forced to see the situation and see herself . . . and suffer. Edward doesn't make her feel worse by coming down on her or yelling at her (even when she asks him to) because the sword impales them both. Her suffering affects his own. Have I made any sense?"
Excellent observations Visitor. I think your sword analogy really hits the mark.

There is no other option but to stand back and let the drama unfold before him. He could not possibly have jumped up and down, yelling, pick-me! pick-me! because that's not Edward. It's not only the personality difference between Edward and Jake, it's also about difference between the boy and the man. (as so eloquently pointed out before)

Edward will step back and let Bella handle the revelation of her feelings for Jake because he it's no longer his battle. I've said this before in another thread, but Edward will fight against Jake, and does, when he knows Bella's heart is his. Once it's confirmed that she has opened herself to Jake, he can't force anything out of her. He would be fighting against Bella at that point instead of Jake, and he will not do that. Edward could hurt Jacobs feelings, but he will never do anything that would cause any more pain to Bella than she is already causing (to herself). It's an internal struggle for her, and he is wise enough to recognize that Bella's revelation is going to mean pain for her. His jealousy is secondary to her pain. He wants to give her the space she needs to deal with her newfound option. (and despite the pain it must cause him, he wants her to give it thoughtful consideration) This is all about Bella and he has no good option but to sit back until she has worked through her feelings on her own. It's the only way either one of them will ever be sure her choice was the right choice.


Edward is more important to Bella than everyone else. He knows this. He knows if she sees his pain she could make a hasty decision they might both regret. The larger picture is what he's after, and he can suppress his own pain for the cause. (and of course there is that part of him that wants the "easier" option for her) Of course we know it's really not the easier option.

December
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Post by December » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:17 pm

Visitor -- thank you so much for posting this. Just rereading it makes me happy, because you have caught so beautifully how to read Edward's long (and to many readers infuriating) bout of self-effacement. Well...it's silly to say "how to read it", since there are lots of ways one might choose; but you have given us a way of reading it that makes everything Edward does fall into place in the most gorgeous way -- and only makes me love this part of the story even more.

I've been wondering about something, in a vague sort of way that hasn't yet coalesced into concrete thought really. Perhaps I'll toss it into the arena anyway, for others to mull over: Is this picture of Edward which you see in Eclipse already present or implicit in the character we meet in TW? Or has he himself changed, matured, become even more impossibly self-denying and noble (perhaps to an over-the-top degree!) since then? Maybe it's hard to say, because the stakes are so completely changed from what they were in TW, where putting Bella's well-being first would have meant strangling their budding relationship before it ever really began. Or perhaps the difference is that the girl whose life he was risking (even as he was wild with anxiety to protect her) was someone he was only beginning to know and love. Whereas now their love is so fathomless that nothing but her happiness and wellbeing has any weight with him anymore. So here is a fun question for you all (I knew my thoughts would come together if I started writing!...): Do you think that Edward could possibly now take the decision he took in TW to gamble on his self-control -- and the vague, carpe diem conviction that somehow they would somehow find a happy ending to the doomed relationship of vampire and human -- and bring Bella to the Meadow? Or would he never again be able to take that kind of risk with her?
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echo1
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Post by echo1 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:34 pm

December wrote:
b] Do you think that Edward could possibly now take the decision he took in TW to gamble on his self-control -- and the vague, carpe diem conviction that somehow they would somehow find a happy ending to the doomed relationship of vampire and human -- and bring Bella to the Meadow? Or would he never again be able to take that kind of risk with her?[/b]
I want to make sure I'm understanding the question, so dumbing it down to my terms are you asking "If he knew then what he knows now would he do it again?" Or Do you mean if a similar situation comes up again would he do things differently?

llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight » Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:50 pm

Not to beat a dead horse... but I thought I would post this since we (well, maybe just me?!) were wondering where in the heck I got the info regarding Midnight Sun... thank you to LisaCullenAz for being my "Magical Search Fairy" :wink:


Girl 5: On the website I read the first chapter of Midnight Sun and I was really looking forward to it, so I was wondering if it was going to be published for sure.

Stephenie Meyer: Well, nothing for sure right now. Midnight Sun is a side project that I started because, it all started because one person told me, "Hey! Do you know they're writing fan fiction about Twilight?" And I said "what's fan fiction?" I had never heard of this before. So they showed me where it was and I read through it. Some of it was interesting, some of it was truly frightening. But the one thing that they all had in common was they kind of got Bella. They understood pretty much her perspective. They wrote pretty convincingly from her point of view, but nobody got Edward. It was SO WRONG and I was a little offended on Edward's behalf. You know, how could they think that this is what he was thinking, you know, when he was going through so much!? So I started thinking about how that first chapter would have read from Edward's perspective and realized it was so much more exciting than Bella's. I mean, this was, this was the worst day of his life, where for Bella it was just first day at a new school, a a really cute guy kind of glared at her. So not much happened. This was a life-altering day for Edward, so I wrote it down and it was really exciting. I mean, seriously, my pulse was elevated while writing, it was that exciting to me. And I wasn't going to write any more than just that first chapter because that helped, that kind of helped people understand him. My mom in particular read it and said, "Stephenie, Edward is so scary!" And I'm like, "Mom, Edward's a vampire." You know? *whispered* He's supposed to be scary. *normal voice* Then, of course, once I got done, I kept going. And I am presently up to about chapter twelve. I am going to try and publish it almost entirely for selfish reasons because I could put it on my website, and that would be cool, but I want it in a beautiful hardback edition I can put right next to Twilight on my shelf, it's going to look so pretty. So it'll probably be out after book four. That's when I'll have a chance to work on it.


*the part in bold is where I got the idea that SM wanted to clear up misconceptions/ negative feelings regarding Edward... so perhaps I am not totally bonkers?.... hey- a girl can hope right?! :oops: :wink:
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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firefly
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Post by firefly » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:37 pm

llovetwilight wrote:*the part in bold is where I got the idea that SM wanted to clear up misconceptions/ negative feelings regarding Edward...
And if you read the rest of it, SM goes on to describe how *she* sees Edward -- those misconceptions by readers are not necessarily the same thing as *negative* feelings about him -- particularly here: "My mom in particular read it and said, "Stephenie, Edward is so scary!" And I'm like, "Mom, Edward's a vampire." You know? *whispered* He's supposed to be scary."

And now back to your Latinating. :wink:
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December
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Post by December » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:41 pm

Thank you Lisa! You have saved me long evenings searching for this quote -- it's exactly what the one I was thinking of. And you know, the fascinating thing is that ILT and Tennyo and I were all sort of right. Stephenie did say that she started MS after reading fanfics and seeing that everyone got Bella right but no one understood Edward properly. But she did also say that she was offended on his behalf that people kept misunderstanding him: that they were getting him wrong. So ILT was right in remembering that she wanted MS to defend Edward against people who were misrepresenting him, only it wasn't addressed to people who didn't like Edward (I assume at that point the fanfic writers were Edward-girls!...). It just goes to show how we all take different things away with us when we read....

Echo1 -- well, I had the second in mind: could the exquisitely self-sacrificing Edward of the later EC possibly behave now the way he did when he first fell in love with Bella and decided to damn the consequences? But the first is extremely interesting as well: having come as it were to the last turning of the road, would he wish it never begun, for Bella's sake? Now that he knows exactly how happy a human future Jake and Bella might have had together, if he had only continued to ignore her for the rest of the year.... I'd love to hear people's thoughts about either of these questions.

Welcome Firefly! Don't you love that aside of Stephenie's....
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LisaCullenAZ
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Post by LisaCullenAZ » Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:18 pm

llovetwilight - You know the part of the interview that says:

So I started thinking about how that first chapter would have read from Edward's perspective and realized it was so much more exciting than Bella's.
That's the part that makes me think I still have a chance to hook my sister-in-law. ;)


TrueLove1 wrote:
There is no other option but to stand back and let the drama unfold before him. He could not possibly have jumped up and down, yelling, pick-me! pick-me! because that's not Edward. It's not only the personality difference between Edward and Jake, it's also about difference between the boy and the man. (as so eloquently pointed out before)
This is what I always have to remind myself. Because I know it is true. My own selfish desire is for Edward to go out and claim what is his. But then this that you said above comes back to my mind and I calm back down again.
Edward is more important to Bella than everyone else. He knows this. He knows if she sees his pain she could make a hasty decision they might both regret. The larger picture is what he's after, and he can suppress his own pain for the cause. (and of course there is that part of him that wants the "easier" option for her) Of course we know it's really not the easier option.

Ah, Edward. My heart can't take it. He is too good.


Visitor wrote:
I'd of been good with TW the way it ended. I'm basing my response on the feelings I had after reading TW, not on the information it left me with. I got my best warm fuzzies from TW, so while it would have been nice to find out the details of how B&E managed to make it work, my imagination would have sufficed in filling in any missing pieces.
I remember those warm fuzzies! I felt them, too. And imagination can be a wonderful thing...

NoWorries wrote:
Perhaps I should have stated my position as "radical pro-bite" -- I'm the Ralph Nader of the pro-bite camp. Or, to quote Muse: "I want it now."
I love this. :lol:
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