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December
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Post by December »

Having recently announced that it's never too late here on Ars Longa to return to past topics....I'm now going to be the first to do it! A few pages ago ILT mentioned Midnight Sun and wondered whether when Edward's story was known, even people who don't like him might find him more sympathetic.

There was one thing in what ILT wrote which caught my attention, because it wasn't quite how I remembered Stephenie explaining the story behind MS -- and I had a pm from Tennyo yesterday with the same query. She asked if I would pass on her thoughts here (she worried it might make people nervous or seem like she was barging in to correct us if she posted it herself) and I said of course I would.

ILT had said:
I will be very interested to find out if any of the anti-Edward gals soften up on him after MS is published. Since this is the whole reason that SM felt the need to write his story. There was a negative reaction to him that she didn't anticipate. She encountered posts (and fanfics I think) regarding Edward's behavior and realized that her readers had a much firmer grasp on Bella than they did Edward. MS is a way for her to clarify some of the misconceptions about Edward...I wonder if it will work?!
It was the bolded bit that struck both me and Tennyo. We both vaguely remembered reading Stephenie saying somewhere that it was funny how the people writing the first Twilight fanfic immediately 'got' Bella, but were all completely off about Edward -- and how this was what started her writing MS: wanting to explain his side of the story and especially what it meant to be a vampire in her imagined universe. (Of course neither of us can now remember where we read it. Help here anyone?).

Anyway, here is what Tennyo wrote:

Tennyo here, ambassador for peace coming over from Controlling. I wanted to clear something up about Midnight Sun. My memory may be playing tricks on me, but to my knowledge, the book was almost definitely not begun for the anti-Edward faction. As it seems pretty agreed upon that the faction showed up with my presence, I'd like to make it known that the first chapter of MS was up even before I had read Twilight for the first time. As I understand it, it was not necessarily a negative reaction that made Stephenie believe that Edward was not being understood. More likely it was a great wave of inability to understand why Edward dislikes himself so greatly, how hard it is for he and his family to abstain from blood, and why he wouldn't just bite Bella and get it over with. I also suspect that she wanted to put to rights the idea that "the bite" in her books and the act of blood-drinking is not a merely whimsical craving with a sexual edge, but a violent, almost uncontrollable need.

I don't know if the reasons for writing MS have changed in the past few years-doubtless my and others' constant questioning of Edward's actions have something to do with it now. But I'm almost positive it was not the reason she started writing Midnight Sun. I can't say I'm aware of what the fandom was like before I joined, and clearly I did not do this all myself, but I am told that any anti-Edward thought was very small before I came. And Midnight Sun predates my own involvement in the series. Please do not put the "blame" so to speak, on people who don't like Edward. We are as eager to read Midnight Sun as anyone else, but I for one like to think that it isn't being written just to "set us straight", but to fill in the "other half" of the love story in Twilight. Thank you for your time and listening to my ramblings. I didn't want to make anyone uncomfortable by posting openly. Your conversations are fascinating, but I am aware that they are largely outside my own way of thinking and it's best I don't join in. I just didn't feel right letting this pass.
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LisaCullenAZ
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Post by LisaCullenAZ »

December, I LOVE that you put Tennyo's words in yellow... just seems to fit for some reason. :lol:

Well, I know we all love our little Edward love-fest going on over here! But I also do hope those on the outside looking in still know we are friendly to all ... Vampire lovers, werewolf lovers, anti-Jacob folks, anti-Edward gals, anti-Bella people, anti-Mr. Banner freaks...




Anyway, back to the question at hand: Are you pro-bite?

Oh, December... you know how to corner me, don't you? Gah, I hate trying to arrange my thoughts on this subject.

OKAY! Here goes a try. I am pro-bite. There, I said it. That wasn't too hard. *eye twitches*

My problem is that if it were me I'm not sure I could do it. Family is the single most important thing in the world to me. My parents and siblings, my husband and children. I cannot imagine picking (at such a young age) to leave all of that behind. Of course, I've never met Edward.

In fact, there was a thread that asked, "What would you do if you met Edward?" And I answered simply, "Run for my life. He would ruin me. I would leave everything for him."

So, there you see. I love Edward as a fictional character. He's my favorite! But to think of Bella in terms of a real human girl, I can't help but hear the mother in me going, "What do you think you are doing, young lady!"

It's hard for me to see Bella in my mind actually laying down, allowing someone to bite her, and turning her back on everything she's ever known. *shudders*

But then it comes to me: What a powerful love she and Edward must share for this to even be an option for her. It supercedes comprehension. The magnitude of her feelings for him and vice versa must certainly be astronomical for her to be considering this so seriously. And to have ultimately chosen it.

So, when I think of it this way, I no longer see it as a sad thing... but a beautiful thing.

I do. I really do. I swear! Why don't you believe me? Are you calling me a liar!?! Okay, you can see I have issues here. Sorry.

Really, though... the most simple explanation for my pro-bite status is this: The story must end with Bella/Edward together. That's it. I can't stand it otherwise. And right now I can't see any other way for that to happen than for Bella to turn. So there. That's all. :wink:


Edited for no reason but to say:

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llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

December wrote:
Since this is the whole reason that SM felt the need to write his story. There was a negative reaction to him that she didn't anticipate. She encountered posts (and fanfics I think) regarding Edward's behavior and realized that her readers had a much firmer grasp on Bella than they did Edward. MS is a way for her to clarify some of the misconceptions about Edward...I wonder if it will work?!
It was the bolded bit that struck both me and Tennyo. We both vaguely remembered reading Stephenie saying somewhere that it was funny how the people writing the first Twilight fanfic immediately 'got' Bella, but were all completely off about
Ahhhh! I wish I could remember where the info is on this, as it is quite possible that I misunderstood. I want to say it was one of the Q/A's posted on the internet? But I am not sure... serves me right for referencing something if I don't remember where to find it!!! :wink:

There is, however, an entire intro to how MS came about on SM's website. The original exercise was for her... to help her understand Edward better. And it soon turned into much more.

The best I can do is remember her talking about reading something (a post perhaps?) and saying to herself "Edward wouldn't do that!". From the context, I took it to mean something along the lines of the behaviors she has "clarified" here on the Lex. Of course, without the reference in front of me, I cannot go back and take another look to find out if that is what she meant or if I was just being totally dense on the first go-round! It would not be the first time that I misinterpreted something. :shock:

Just to clarify...my interest in whether there will be changes of opinion once MS is published was not meant in any way to be hurtful. I am honestly curious... Not to say that anyone should or needs to change their minds about Edward or any of the characters... Although- to be honest, I would like BD to change my mind about Jake because I really would like to like him but that is for another post!

Also- I didn't intend to put words in SM's mouth, which after reading how my post was written, it looks like I have done just that. Like I said earlier... my take on what she said was that she really wanted to clear up the misconceptions... that she wanted to revisit his story because she felt as though Bella was very understood and Edward was not. She felt his story needed to be told. Of course, we all know how detailed and thourough SM is... which is part of what makes the stories so great.

So... long-winded version of me saying I have no idea where I heard it, but what I posted was my interpretation of what I heard, and if I misunderstood it and posted something that is bonkers... then I will gladly say SORRY! :wink:
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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December
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Post by December »

Visitor wrote:So after writing this, I guess my reasons for being anti-ish bite are a little more clear to me, I guess I just don't want Bella's parents to have to think they've lost a child. BUT let's be perfectly clear, if the bite is the only way I'll get to see my happy ending with Bella and Edward together . . . then I'll just have to send Renee and Charlie a mourning card and a casserole.
I am too sleepy to either a)dig out my old posts on the subject or b)reconstruct them but...if this is your only worry I think you are lined up for take-off into the wild blue yonder of pro-bite. Mourning card and casserole not called for. In this internet age, there are so many ways that Bella can manage to stay in touch with her parents without ever seeing them. Cellphones, fax, email, blogging, skype (just learning about skype, here...), even old-fashioned snailmail. Yes she will have to lie a lot. And yes, it will hurt their feelings that she makes excuses and never comes to see them. But there is absolutely no reason she has to let them think she is dead. I don't know why it was ever put in these terms, except to help damp down the squealy girls' pro-bite fecklessness with a few sober consequences. No vampire secrets have to be betrayed if Bella lets Charlie and Renee think her scoundrel husband has swept her off to Singapore to live the decadent life of the rich and famous...

True*Love wrote:I'm truly happy the series has taken the course it did though, only because I want and need Edward to be happy and content with Bella's decision. And wanting it for himself without brandishing himself selfish.
Exactly. Before Eclipse came out, I thought a lot about how the story could possibly go in the next book/s so that Edward could change Bella without being be paralyzed by guilt. And Stephenie has done a miraculous job of shaping events so that he is plausibly reconciled to the prospect. Edward can say 'it will be the most selfish thing I ever do' , but by that point (and certainly by the end of the book) he has also begun to recognize how inextricably his needs and Bella's needs have become entwined so that his selfishness and selflessness can't be disentangled (as has been much discussed!).

That's one of the amazing things about that (frustrating!) exchange at the very end of the meadow scene -- how Bella's wants have become Edward's and vice versa (and Stephenie explicitly raises this issue: 'This had better not be about me.' Everything in my world was about him. What a silly thing to expect.). She wants what he wants because he wants it -- these aren't distinguishable anymore: all her desires (the ones she wants for herself and the ones she wants for him) have run together into a single bucket. It's like the way the opposing attitudes they begin with converge over the course of the book: Bella's reckless determination to become a vampire ASAP modulates into a soberer awareness of the cost and Edward's resistance gradually relaxes into resignation until by the end they have reached the same place and can go hand in hand to tell Charlie, plan their wedding and prepare together for the step that will unite them forever.

LisaCullenAZ wrote:But then it comes to me: What a powerful love she and Edward must share for this to even be an option for her. It supercedes comprehension. The magnitude of her feelings for him and vice versa must certainly be astronomical for her to be considering this so seriously. And to have ultimately chosen it.
And in fact not only is it an option for her, but in the end it seems as though it's the only option. As Truelove1 so beautifully put it: one by one, Stephenie has weeded out all the logical alternative possibilities for Bella, so that she/the characters/the fans can be at peace with the decision. It is amazing that Stephenie has been able to portray for us a love so powerful that we come to believe that this is the right choice. (And oh I do hope after all this she is not going to throw it all away on some other ending!)

LisaCullenAZ wrote:It's hard for me to see Bella in my mind actually laying down, allowing someone to bite her, and turning her back on everything she's ever known. *shudders*
What makes you think she is going to lie down?
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llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

LisaCullenAZ wrote:Vampire lovers, werewolf lovers, anti-Jacob folks, anti-Edward gals, anti-Bella people, anti-Mr. Banner freaks...
Poor Mr Banner... :lol:
NoWorries wrote:I never wanted / needed a sequal, let alone a trilogy, let alone a quadrilogy. I could have been totally happy with changing Bella at the end of Twilight and I'd not have considered for a second that her decision was rash or hasty or poorly thought out. In a sense, I could make the argument that I'd be considerably *happier*, even, if things had turned out that way; because I wouldn't have to find daily diversions from the creeping obsession that is Twilight.
This reminds me of how my sister felt. I was referred to this series about a week after EC was released. I read all three books in a matter of 4 days! After I finished TW, I immediately gave it to my sister and she ended up reading all three books in the same time period!

After the first read of EC, I was in a fit... that CAN'T be the end, can it??? And of course, I soon found out that there would be another book... which made me very happy. Granted, I was not so happy about the wait- oh the long horrible wait, but I was satified in that the series would not end on a less than solid B/E together without any third wheels standing. Plus, I was just too excited to read more about swoony Edward- and Emmett... I have a soft spot for Emmett. Anyhow, I giddily called my sister to let her know the "good" news and she about cried!!!

She explained that the meadow scene was enough for her. Bella said goodbye to Jake, she now knew exactly what she was giving up to be with Edward, Edward put the ring on her finger, and in my sister's mind, Bella was a vampire and they were happily married by now. She was suddenly worried about what drama would unfold in the next book. What if Jake ruins the wedding? What if Bella isn't turned? What if there is something more to the Tanya story? She fired off questions left and right, it was kind of scary (mostly because those were the same questions in the back of my mind that will not be answered until the fall of '08 ) and disturbing. :shock:

So, we made a deal. I will read BD as soon as I can get my hot little hands on it and as long as there is not TGDSII and it has a happy ending- then my sister will read it. Otherwise, she will pretend that BD does not exist and that her version of what happens after EC is what really happens.

Here is a question: Would you have been happy with only Twilight? Only TW and NM? What if the series stopped at EC? If you had your way, would a some-what open ending have been enough, or do you need the entire story "wrapped up in a bow"?

I am all for waiting on this question until we are done with the bite question... It might be easier to post if we go one question at a time...
Last edited by llovetwilight on Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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LisaCullenAZ
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Post by LisaCullenAZ »

Okay. I have no idea why she would lie down. Probably I envisioned it this way because it feels like a major operation. Only she's not getting a new nose or having a sex change, she's having a mortality fix. ;)

llovetwilight wrote:
Just to clarify...my interest in whether there will be changes of opinion once MS is published was not meant in any way to be hurtful. I am honestly curious... Not to say that anyone should or needs to change their minds about Edward or any of the characters...
I actually understood that this is what you meant the first time you posted it. Probably because I am honestly curious, too. I don't think anybody with strong feelings either way will actually change their opinions much... but there may be some fence sitters out there we don't know about. Like my sister-in-law. The "cheesecake hater" as I like to call her. :lol:

I am actually thinking I will give her another shot at these books when MS comes out. She doesn't have passionate feelings concerning any of these characters (other than complete disinterest.) But she did complain specifically about being annoyed with Bella's point of view. So I'm thinking Edward's version might do the trick? Even if she didn't particularly care for him either? *sigh* Might be a lost cause...

p.s. My sister-in-law would actually freak out on me for calling her a cheesecake hater. She rather enjoys them. But here is where my "Edward = Cheesecake" banner would come in handy!


Edit:

llovetwilight wrote:
This reminds me of how my sister felt. I was referred to this series about a week after EC was released.
For real? I'm shocked! I don't know why...
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true*love
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Post by true*love »

llovetwilight said:
as long as there is not TGDSII
Oy!! Please don't go there...shhhhh! My poor little heart couldn't take anymore of that! I felt really bad throwing my EC during the TGDSI...I would hate to harm another book! :lol: (By the way, I'm not a violent person :wink:)

Cheesecake...I never commented on cheesecake. My husband makes the best white chocolate cheesecake!! And what's not to love?

Creamy filling...goood!
Chocolate ganache topping (on mine)..goood!
Graham cracker crust....goooood!!
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llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

I had to share this little bit of Latin:

"Qui me amat, amet et canem meum" -Love me, love my dog

Can you imagine Bella talking in Latin, using this phrase in the Switzerland chapter?!

And you all know that I am not a Jake girl... but the quote cracked me up.

and now back to the previous topic....
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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LindsAy
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Post by LindsAy »

Well, first I must say I am 100% pro-bite. The reasons but all you pro-biters have pretty much covered it. Plus, I just feel like it's the only way we can truly get a happy ending for B/E unless Edward became human - which I honestly think would be a little bit lame after all this lead up. I have a few things I' l'd like to comment on but I'll save it for a later date as I'm running late this morning. :)

ILT wrote:
Would you have been happy with only Twilight? Only TW and NM? What if the series stopped at EC? If you had your way, would a some-what open ending have been enough, or do you need the entire story "wrapped up in a bow"?
Hmmm...Well, I would have been happy with only Twilight, though a little more defined ending would have been nice. Ended after New Moon? Well, that would have been okay too, I guess, though that one seemed very primed for a sequel. Now I think if it had stopped after Eclipse, I'd be annoyed. Yes, it had the happy ending, but it still didn't leave me enough closure to feel secure about B/E (though I'm MUCH better now than when I started). Plus we are right at the brink of some very big events happening and now I'm just dying to read about them first hand, not just know they are going to happen. So, to sum it up, I am really happy Bella's story will be "wrapped up in a bow." I'm trying to keep an open mind about BD though, so I'm not all crushed if my perfect vision for B/E doesn't turn out.

I really need one about procrastination, but this will do...

Absum! (I'm outta here!) :)

echo1
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Post by echo1 »

December wrote:So I have a question for all of you: Are you pro-bite?

And did EC and/or NM change your views about this at all?

I am pro bite and I think I'm repeating myself from another thread when I say it's for both the purpose of seeing a happy ending for Bedward AND because I'm dying to see Bella have an awesome power and start a little kicking butt and taking names. What can I say? "Girl Power!" *flashes peace sign* Any Spaced fans here?!

Edit because I just saw this one:
Would you have been happy with only Twilight? Only TW and NM? What if the series stopped at EC? If you had your way, would a some-what open ending have been enough, or do you need the entire story "wrapped up in a bow"?
I would have been happy if it ended with TW. I could see where I might have been happy with the ending of NM...wait, nope, she didn't accept the proposal. And ending with EC? I wouldn't be horribly devasted but I am hoping that the ending will be a bit happier than that. The break with Jacob was a little too close to the end for me and while I believe that B&E are going to be together and she is happy with her choice, my heart was still a little too raw at the end.

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