SMDND-Exploring the Theme of "Choice"

[llovetwilight]

I think the difficulty for Edward is that it's not enough that Bella is happier than she has ever been. She has to be happier than she ever could be. More than that, she needs to still be happier than she ever could be when she is standing on the far side of the unimaginable cataclysm that she is steadily walking towards.

*Swoon* And this is what makes Edward so wonderful. Even with all of his faults, he is a truly GREAT person. His love for Bella shows us that.

Edward, even in his selfishness, is always concerned even more for Bella's happiness. In NM he decided to hurt Bella for her own good

He hurt himself just as deeply in the process in order to give her a chance at "safe" happiness. I wonder though, if Edward truly realized how devastated Bella would be after he left? It seems like he really thought that she would get over him, especially when she believed so quickly that he wasn't in love with her anymore. If he had known how much she would suffer in his absence, I don't think he would/could have left. When Jake makes him "see" what Bella was like while he was gone, the pain was unbearable for him. I think that had he been able to glimpse into the future (a la Alice) and see the outcome of his NM departure, Edward would have realized that even though he may have felt selfish for wanting to stay, his sticking around was what was really best for Bella too.

[echo1]

I wonder though, if Edward truly realized how devastated Bella would be after he left? It seems like he really thought that she would get over him, especially when she believed so quickly that he wasn't in love with her anymore. If he had known how much she would suffer in his absence, I don't think he would/could have left. When Jake makes him "see" what Bella was like while he was gone, the pain was unbearable for him. I think that had he been able to glimpse into the future (a la Alice) and see the outcome of his NM departure, Edward would have realized that even though he may have felt selfish for wanting to stay, his sticking around was what was really best for Bella too.

I 100% agree, that while he knew he was hurting her, I do not think that he had a clue exactly how much he was hurting her. No, if he had seen what was going to happen to her, he could have never left.

[llovetwilight]

I 100% agree, that while he knew he was hurting her, I do not think that he had a clue exactly how much he was hurting her.

And it seems SO obvious that she would be just as hurt as he was, doesn't it?! The fact that Edward truly didn't realize the depth of Bella's feelings/need for him makes me so sad! It is unfathomable (to him) that she could feel as deeply for him as he does for her. Not because he doubts her, but because he doubts his own worthiness of such love.

It is this reason that I was actually glad *hoping no one smacks me* that Jake remembered how Bella was for Edward to "see". NOT because I wanted Edward to suffer about the pain he caused more than he already was, but because he got to see for himself just how far gone Bella was during that time. He still might feel undeservising of Bella's love, but after seeing how destroyed she was while he was away, Edward cannot deny that she does truly love and need him.

[echo1]

And it seems SO obvious that she would be just as hurt as he was, doesn't it?! The fact that Edward truly didn't realize the depth of Bella's feelings/need for him makes me so sad! It is unfathomable (to him) that she could feel as deeply for him as he does for her. Not because he doubts her, but because he doubts his own worthiness of such love.

Yes, it does seem so obvious. And that obviousness (is that a word?) goes two ways, Bella also believed that he really didn't love her anymore. Neither had enough faith in the other, or rather, in themselves to believe in the love they have.

Hmm, I think we just succeeded in convincing me that New Moon needed to happen.

It is this reason that I was actually glad *hoping no one smacks me* that Jake remembered how Bella was for Edward to "see". NOT because I wanted Edward to suffer about the pain he caused more than he already was, but because he got to see for himself just how far gone Bella was during that time. He still might feel undeservising of Bella's love, but after seeing how destroyed she was while he was away, Edward cannot deny that she does truly love and need him.

No smacking here, Edward definitely NEEDED to see all of that.

[Visitor]

a) would Edward be able to risk Bella's life again, if he had to do it now?

b) does he regret having made the choice he did and would he do it again if he had the chance to go back and do it all over?

Great topic!!

For some reason I am completely un-conflicted about my answer to this question. It's as clear to me as if it were written in the text. Although that doesn't mean that my answer is necessarily the right answer. But the way I have come to see Edward, I'm almost positive that he would change things if given the chance. In fact, I'm convinced that would be the case. Now, I don't think he regrets the choice he originally made, in the sense that he found his life's true mate. But, I don't think that Edward would hesitate for a moment (well, maybe for just a moment) to give Bella back an opportunity at a normal and happy life. And the reason the answer seems so clear to me is because I can only see Edward weighing the possibilities as they relate to Bella and not himself. So therefore, anything he happened to gain as a result of having been with Bella (true happiness, regained faith, humanness, etc.) would become secondary or obsolete when matched up against what would be in Bella's best interest.

Which is why I love what you said here December:

It really all depends on how great a joy he believes his love has brought Bella: whether the love that he and Bella share is so transcendent that she could never be as happy without him, even when all the grief and pain of becoming a vampire is taken into account. Or whether it is merely the case that, having once loved him she can never be happy without him again.

Both of the possibilities you suggest hinge on Bella's ultimate happiness, not Edward's. And I would even go so far as to say that Edward would still change the past even if he believed that Bella could never be 'as' happy with someone else as she could be with him. Because I believe that Edward abhors what he is so much and is so saddened by Bella's willful desire to give up everything and become what he is, that he would settle for just seeing Bella plain happy (even if it's not 'as happy) if simple happiness did not require her to forfeit her own life. I think that if marginal happiness without him were still possible now, he'd take the steps necessary to bring it about. Because he's already hinted at it, hasn't he? . . . with his 4 option discussion with Jacob? One of the options was the NM option (he leaves, Bella moves on). I don't think it necessarily mattered how she moved on, or if she was able to find a greater happiness because of it. Edward's hope then was that Bella would simply move on. That's why the only reason that option is no longer available (even with the knowledge that Bella loves Jacob too) is because Bella is telling him that moving on without him is no longer an option for her. And he's able to believe it because Jacob 'showed' Edward what became of Bella when he left the first time. That's why he made the comment about not leaving again unless she actually tells him to. And that's because even now . . . even after knowing what he knows about the love he has experienced, he'd still walk away if that was what was best for her. And that's now, present day! Therefore, I can't help but believe that Edward would change the past and make a different choice if given the opportunity.

[llovetwilight]

Yes, it does seem so obvious. And that obviousness (is that a word?) goes two ways, Bella also believed that he really didn't love her anymore. Neither had enough faith in the other, or rather, in themselves to believe in the love they have.
Hmm, I think we just succeeded in convincing me that New Moon needed to happen.

Yep, Bella believing that Edward didn't love her anymore seems SO silly when you consider all that he had gone through to be with her up until that point. He wouldn't just wake up one morning (well, given that he can't sleep this quite literally wouldn't happen!) and not be in love with her anymore!

And you are right, they BOTH needed to realize how the other felt about them since they each have worthiness issues... which made NM very necessary. Yucky, but necessary!

[Stephenie]

I hope this doesn't sound creepy, but I think I'm in love with December. (You all should see the adorable Edward, Bella, and Jacob salt dough ornaments she made for me! Brilliant AND crafty!)

I do want to say one thing in regards to echo1's comment about obviousness in regards particularly to Edward's belief that Bella would move on quickly and easily; in some ways, it seems really obvious that she is too invested to let go, and Edward should have known that. Yet look at the human (mostly teenage) response to New Moon. I still get interesting comments at signings about Bella's unrealistic (and anti-feminist!) meltdown in NM. Many readers can't imagine how she could not pick herself up and go about her business after a week or so. That's normal and human and the way 99.99% of teenagers recover from a failed romance. Is it so hard to believe that Edward could expect exactly the same thing? He never quite gets over expecting Bella to have normal human responses, because she is, after all, human. She's just not normal I think he's slowly figuring that out.

It's hard being virtually omniscient; you don't know how to second guess yourself when someone doesn't fit the pattern.

I don't know why I'm rambling on so much. I mostly just wanted to profess my adoration for December's poetic prose and tell you all how much I'm enjoying this discussion. (Also, my husband is hogging my mac (and I'm stuck with his stupid PC) so I don't have much to do.)

[Sorghey]

Ok, I saw this thread earlier and loved it. In fact, this thread pulled me back out of hiding (been lurking for a few months). I thought about my response and when I came back, I saw that Stephenie posted! So, hello ladies.

And may I please second Stephenie's kind compliment about December. Her posts are wonderful--very thought provoking.

Stephenie wrote:

He never quite gets over expecting Bella to have normal human responses, because she is, after all, human. She's just not normal I think he's slowly figuring that out.

This is why I have to say that I do think Edward would do it all over again, given what he knows, even now. The connection between Bella and Edward is not easily explained. Bella is NOT normal. It's one of the major characteristics that sucks Edward in. Although he chose Bella in TW under somewhat "blind" circumstances, he chose her for all of the same reasons that he would choose her now. Edward is Edward. Which is why I don't think he regrets his decisions. I believe he learns from his mistakes (exhibit A: Eclipse). In NM, Edward admits that he would have come back for Bella. Doesn't he say this even after he knew about the danger she was in during his "leave of absense"? I truly believe that Bella and Edward are at a point-of-no-return.

ETA: One more thought. I think Edward, no matter how noble, found his one weakness in Bella (which I think is what makes him so sexy--a practically invincible vampire overcome by a human girl). So even if he could undo the past and give Bella a vampire-free life, I think history still would have repeated itself.

"If I hadn't thought you would be better off, I could have never made myself leave. I'm much too selfish. Only you could be more important than what I wanted...what I needed. What I want and need is to be with you, and I know I'll never be strong enough to leave again. I have too many excuses to stay--thank heaven for that!" (NM 513).

[BellaTheBrunette]

I agree with llovetwilight -

NM was VERY necessary for their relationship. Because look at it from Edward's point of view: He is a monster. He is not healthy for Bella, because he is keeping her from "normal" (whatever the heck that means) experiences. She cannot possibly love him as much as she thinks, because she is only a silly human. SHE might be the one to "move on" eventually and not want him anymore, and he doesn't want to keep her from that. (Of course, all these reasons pale in comparison with how MUCH they BOTH loved each other by then)

All that being said, Edward is slowly realizing that Bella's love for him is not really human, more supernatural...Which all relationships require a bit of learning - Edward just over-does this a TEENY bit (see New Moon).

Getting back to the original-ish question, I think that Edward would choose to go back and NOT leave Bella in NM, since he would now have the knowledge of how deep Bella's love for him actually is, and how much it destroys her to be away from him...(Hope that makes some sense)

[Pretty Words]

[Now I still am undecided if the events in Eclipse will make for a potentially angsty Edward in the beginning of Breaking Dawn. On the one hand, he seemed so calm and didn't seem in any panic over what Bella was feeling for Jacob at all (he handled it a lot better than I did!). On the other hand, I wondered if maybe there was some pain there under the surface that just hasn't been dealt with yet.

See, this is interesting to me too, b/c for a long time after I finished Eclipse, I couldn't imagine Edward not holding even the tiniest bit of resentment towards Bella and Jake for falling in love...mainly Bella. I mean, as time has progressed, and I've had time to consider what he said after he came back and found Bella in the tent and she's moaning about how she wants to die and how he reassured her...I've decided that maybe he really is okay with the whole thing.

On the one hand, he did think he was horrible for Bella and that she was giving up too much to be with him. And we know that he thought perhaps if there was someone else, and perhaps if she realized the full extent of what she was giving up in choosing Edward, then maybe she wouldn't want Edward after all. Because Bella fell in love with Jake, Edward was able to see that Bella really did want him (Edward) more than anything else, even though she could have chosen Jake and lived that "white picket fence" sort of life. So in that aspect, I can see how Edward would be more grateful than resentful that Bella fell in love with Jake.

On the other hand...I have a hard time imagining that someone could be that forgiving. I mean, so Edward wasn't even the tiniest bit upset that she was in love with someone else? And I don't mean upset as in depressed, I mean upset like...feeling spurned and resentful...

I suppose that, one could reach the conclusion that if Edward felt even the smallest bit of resentment...the relief in knowing she was confident in her decision, overpowered it?

(and sorry if this seems a tad off-topic, I didn't read past lindsAy's post...)

EDIT
and now I have and I'm very sorry that I have to go to bed, b/c this is an extremely (though head-ache inducing ) discussion.