SMDND-Exploring the Theme of "Choice"

General discussion about the Twilight Series Universe.
LisaCullenAZ
Fishing with Charlie
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:31 pm
Location: AZ (duh)

Post by LisaCullenAZ »

Okay, CatchingCove... I thought that was what you meant. And your further explanation makes total sense. I see what you're saying about them not only doing it for selfless reasons of empathy etc. but also because of what it gives to them in return. They get something out of this choice, which is feeling human... in at least some ways. Totally clear to me now. :)
[img]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd76/sprtygal/Cliff.gif[/img]
[color=black][size=84]Banner by Fry ~ Thank You, thank you, thank you![/color][/size]

Adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis.

SparklingDiamond
Wandering Through Town
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:15 am

Post by SparklingDiamond »

What does this add to Stephenie's story, to Edward's character, to his relationship with Bella, as we have been construing them here?
T1ger made a lot of good points regarding this questions. For me, knowing this aspect of Edward's life makes sheds a different light on the choice to become vampire for Bella. If Edward had led a perfectly flawless existence, she could have fooled herself into believing that she could easily do the same.

But, knowing that Edward, who is perfect to her, has made imperfect choices, has strayed from the Cullen way of life, shows her that this isn't as easy as she would have first like to have believed. IMO, the knowledge of this aspect of Edward's life only deepens the sincerity of Bella's choice for me. If it was hard for Edward, if even he made mistakes, she has to accept the chance that she will too.

December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

This is not exactly a response the current question.... but I stumbled across it today and it seemed so germane to everything we've been talking about lately that I just had to post it. It's from an old thread (Oct 2006) on the subject of Edward's reaction in Volterra when he learns what has been happening in Bella's life since he left her. The bolding is mine.


* * * * * * * * * *

Stephenie wrote:

Edward is extremely angry at this point, as some of you have guessed. Of course, this anger isn't something he can get into that very moment. There's the whole about-to-be-slaughtered-by-the-Volturi thing to concentrate on.

Aside from that crucial concern, there are also many things Edward tries to protect Bella from, not the least of which is himself. Particularly the darker side of his nature. He's always very careful, throughout Twilight and New Moon, to hide that aspect of himself from her when he can. This is one of those moments. Because Edward is not angry at Bella. He is angry at Laurent, Victoria, and the werewolves. Actually, "anger" doesn't quite cover what Edward feels toward people who put Bella in danger (himself included). At this moment, the idea that Victoria was hunting Bella is so overwhelming that he can't speak. "Homicidal fury" would probably be the best description of his emotional state. But he doesn't want Bella to see him in a killing rage and, as mentioned first, there are more vital things to be dealt with, so he holds the fury inside. He's always been very good at controlling himself.

* * * * * * * * * *


I thought this was an interesting contribution to the discussion we've been having for some weeks about the often-unspoken, darker side of this story....

If anyone is interested in the rest of the discussion on this thread (it's quite good) the link is here.


ETA

T1g -- I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know if I think number 3 is necessarily the main reason (though I had to laugh because it is so true, especially the "marginally"...), but it is certainly crucial. All the reasons you give are. And I think the point you raised, Sparkling Diamond, is chilling and true. Being a vampire is dangerous. Always.
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis

Cocoa
Clarifying Base Running for Edward
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Gettin' Lucky in Kentucky!
Contact:

Post by Cocoa »

Dark undercurrent...well of course, since we are dealing with people who suck other peoples blood. But in this instance I don't think its so much as hiding his inner demon, though I am sure that is part of it. Edward wants her to see the best in him. He wants to be better because of her. Much like we hide our "darker" sides from a lover. We only want them to see us in the best light. Its human nature. As Bella brings out his human instincts he embraces that characteristic as well. I would think of it like you being a victum of a violent crime and you husband lovingly caring for you and then secretly leaves the house to go deal with the perpetrator of the offense.

(I do love it when Stephenie gives us good nibblets.)

December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

Cocoa -- I was going to write a brilliantly lucid reply (naturally) but it's late and I can't think straight so it will have to wait for another day. But in the meantime, can I throw something else into the mix? It's another quote from Stephenie, about the irony of Bella's horrified reaction to Gianna's desire to become a vampire.

Stephenie Wrote:

Yes, Bella doesn't quite put two and two together there, does she? But Edward does. He knows the difference between himself and the Volturi is a very slender thread. Vampire = vampire.
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis

Cocoa
Clarifying Base Running for Edward
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Gettin' Lucky in Kentucky!
Contact:

Post by Cocoa »

So interesting you bring that Quote up today December! Such a wonderful day, information wise! In Peter's interview on his myspace he talks about feeling as though Carlisle is a seperate species..not human and not vampire, but super human. We have had this convo before. It makes me wonder, does this ability to chose, automatically make them different? Evolved? A new species. Peter talked about the vampires being ruled by their thirst. So does the Cullen's ability to control theirs make them a new species? Does their ability to choose make them a new species? Such interesting things! I need to think.

llovetwilight
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: California

Post by llovetwilight »

December wrote: It's another quote from Stephenie, about the irony of Bella's horrified reaction to Gianna's desire to become a vampire.

Stephenie Wrote:

Yes, Bella doesn't quite put two and two together there, does she? But Edward does. He knows the difference between himself and the Volturi is a very slender thread. Vampire = vampire.
When I read this quote originally, my first reaction was "Well, Edward is wrong!".

For me, there is a WORLD of difference between the Cullens and the Volturi. Yes, they are all vampires who, biologically speaking, are one and the same. But I cannot honestly look at Emmett and Jane and think that they are similar in any way other than their immortality.

On that line of thinking, it seems natural to me that Bella would be appalled by Gianna's wish to become an immortal without connecting it to her own. Gianna wishes to become a part of a society that makes sport of feeding off unsuspecting tourists. Gianna knows only the Volturi way of vampire existence and for some reason it appeals to her. Bella on the other hand, has no desire for immortality itself * , she simply wants to be with Edward. As their story has progressed, it seems that becoming an immortal is the only (viable) way for that to happen.

Stephenie mentioned a while back that if there was a difference in thinking between Bella and Edward that it was a safe bet that SM herself shared Edward's view. I wonder if that is true in this case? Does SM agree with Edward that Vampire=vampire and that "the difference between himself and the Volturi is a very slender thread"?

I really like what Cocoa brought up about Carlisle (and imo all of the Cullens) being a sort of hybrid species. Neither Vampire nor Human, but a breed that combines the best qualities of each. And while they are not infallible or immune to the down sides of being human and vampire, they strive to overcome them i.e. feeding off animals.

*although she does seem interested in the renovation her body will undertake as a result of the transformation. But even then, the beauty, the strength really only appeal to her so that she may be on an "even playing field" with Edward.
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

[img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/ouisa/life-now1.gif[/img]
Thanks for the pretty banner Ouisa!

Di
Teaching Eric Social Graces
Posts: 215
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:11 am

Post by Di »

llovetwilight wrote:
December wrote: It's another quote from Stephenie, about the irony of Bella's horrified reaction to Gianna's desire to become a vampire.

Stephenie Wrote:

Yes, Bella doesn't quite put two and two together there, does she? But Edward does. He knows the difference between himself and the Volturi is a very slender thread. Vampire = vampire.
When I read this quote originally, my first reaction was "Well, Edward is wrong!".

For me, there is a WORLD of difference between the Cullens and the Volturi. Yes, they are all vampires who, biologically speaking, are one and the same. But I cannot honestly look at Emmett and Jane and think that they are similar in any way other than their immortality.
Good points all. I'd say that although the thread is slender, it is significant, as it is a matter of particular "vampire culture". Yes, the nature of vampirism in SM's world means that humans are food, but I wouldn't underestimate the power of "this is the way we do things" (both for good and ill) to impact conduct. Or maybe we can attribute it to their "religion" or "faith/belief system". We humans are capable of unspeakable acts (we may not be driven to them because we need to do it to survive, but our reptilian brain, the stuff below our cerebral cortex, doesn't employ logic - just flight or fight) but something stops (most of) us. I guess the reason why irony was lost on Bella when she saw how Gianna accepted the Volturi version of vampires was because it was the notion of vampires untempered, undiluted with notions of love and existing purely as the selfish desire for sustenance at all costs and no qualms.

Not sure if that made sense.
[img]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd76/sprtygal/Wolf_Bella.gif[/img]
This banner is designed by the one-of-a-kind talent known on the Lex as Fry. Thanks!
[img]http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii6/NenaCullen/fhrybday.jpg[/img]

Cocoa
Clarifying Base Running for Edward
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Gettin' Lucky in Kentucky!
Contact:

Post by Cocoa »

I have been thinking about this all week. And I thinkEdward is right...sort of.

I began trying to find something I could relate the situation to. Something in history that would place a race of being in a position of thinking about another race as meat. The closest I came up with was slavery. But the more I thought about it the more that seemed to click. "red eyed" vampires see humans as merely a food source and nothing more, not caring for their lives in any way. Much the same as slave owners disreguarded the people they stole and offered for sale. And then after a great deal of time a few people began to change their thinking. Just the way the Cullens have. (I am not nearly explaining my thoughts a well as I would hope, but its after midnight, so I hope you will understand.)

So after relating the Cullens thoughts to the thoughts of those who apposed slavery in the early days of this country, I began to think Edward was right. vampire does = vampire on a cellular level...however they key ingrediant here that I think Edward misses is that just like human may = human all humans are different. Its the choices we make that set us apart from one another.

SparklingDiamond
Wandering Through Town
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:15 am

Post by SparklingDiamond »

Aside from that crucial concern, there are also many things Edward tries to protect Bella from, not the least of which is himself. Particularly the darker side of his nature. He's always very careful, throughout Twilight and New Moon, to hide that aspect of himself from her when he can.
To me, this is quite interesting. Edward talks a lot about wanting Bella to change her mind, to go running away from him and his family so that she can lead a normal life. Yet, he also does so much to protect her from knowing the reality of his darker side. Kind of ironic to me. As much as he wants her to choose to leave, he sure does a lot to keep her from leaving even in the very beginning.

As for the Bella/Gianna comparison, I see this in a similar light as the comment that I made in the last post. Bella doesn't want to see the Cullens in the same light as the Volturi because then she'd be forced to envision herself living the lifestyle of the volturi. Again, something she doesn't want to admit is possible, but deep down, knows that it is. Her repulsion at Gianna's decision is the same the repulsion that most humans would feel for Bella's decision if presented with it in the real world.

Just as a mother only wants to see the best in her child, Bella only wants to see the best in her new family. She doesn't want to see that the Cullens are in escence, only a split decision or a momentary snap, away from regressing to the Volturi way of life.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests