Fun Despite the Depth! TUGPM Take Three

General discussion about the Twilight Series Universe.
puprlepenguin
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Post by puprlepenguin »

So which is it...Is she trying to control the outcome of her visions by controlling the situation? Or is she trying to fulfill the vision because of some inborn sense of responsibility?

I don't think she's completely trying to control the outcome but she might be to an extent. For example the wedding part, she didn't see that happen so I think she did try to control the situation a bit so that it would happen. But I don't think it was just so that she could be in the wedding. As for the inborn sense of responsibility, that could be why she's trying to control it some. She saw things happening and wanted to make sure they did happen because they're supposed to. That could have more to do with the wedding than the controlling part.

I'm not sure if that made much sense...so to summarize I think it's the inborn sense of responsibility and the living up to the visions in life that lead her to try and control the situation to a point. I think I once read something that said Alice was a fatalist, she lives the way her visions lead her or others to live.
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TrueLove1
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Post by TrueLove1 »

This quote is from "Miscalculation"-Rosalie's pov of the phone call with Alice in Bella's house
"Alice had always functioned in a different world than the rest of us, locked up in her ever-changing reality"
This is the quote from Stephenie in PC #12:
Alice is a fatalist. She knows her own future, and she follows it.

So, my thoughts when reading the one at the top are that it describes Alice when she deals with seeing things/events of others, whether she is or is not included in them. The ever-changing reality is a result of visions that she sees that depend on other peoples decisions.

I feel that the second quote describes Alice, and her own path in life. For some reason I feel like Alice's vision of her own path does not change, it can't, because every step she takes is on the path to her own end. It's predetermined because she sees it and she is the one with the choice, and she sees it because it's predetermined. It's like Alice is in a loop. Her own path is not going to change.

Alice woke up a vampire, and saw herself as a good vampire with the Cullens. She set on that path because she knew that was she was going to do. She searched for Jasper until she found him. When she sees him she says, "what took you so long?" I picture Alice waiting around that coffee shop for a long time because she knew that she would meet Jasper there, but not necessarily when she would meet him there. (at least that's the way I took it)

When her visions depend on the decisions of others, and she doesn't like what she's seeing, I think she tries to step and change things to the best of her ability. Sometimes it's to save a life, (perhaps) and sometimes she has more selfish reasons, as with the wedding. When I say selfish I cringe a little to myself, because Alice is such a unique character, with a unique gift, (and I personally truly believe she loves Bella like a sister, other wise she wouldn't have 1) seen Bella jumping off the cliff and 2) defied Edward and gone back to Forks because of it.) that I don't know if I personally feel like her motivations can be characterized as wholly selfish. The part that is selfish comes in when Alice is using emotional manipulation to get Bella to change her mind, but I wonder if she does that at least partly because she knows what Edward would like, (not through a vision, because that decision isn't made) but just by knowing him. Once Bella has opened herself to the possibility of a formal wedding, Alice sees the happy ending and sees (presumably) Bella thanking her ...."in fifty years". At that point she has no reason to want anything else for Bella and Edward both.

Good Lord, I'm not sure if any of this makes any sense, I feel like I may have just rambled myself into a circle. This is the philosophy thread though, right? So that shouldn't be a problem!
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Post by Alcyone »

TrueLove1 wrote:I feel that the second quote describes Alice, and her own path in life. For some reason I feel like Alice's vision of her own path does not change, it can't, because every step she takes is on the path to her own end. It's predetermined because she sees it and she is the one with the choice, and she sees it because it's predetermined. It's like Alice is in a loop. Her own path is not going to change.
I think you just described Alice perfectly. Her visions come from decisions--she controls that--but she also follows her visions exactly (except in cases she doesn't like what she see). In that way, her visions control her. She made a choice and there came the vision. But there are always hundreds of choices and, despite their ability to analyze multiple scenarios and objects near simultaneously, I doubt she focuses on every little choice she could make. Not even vampires have that much time! She saw one she liked and went for it. No matter if there was another down the line.

It also helps establish her character further. She's a fatalist, what will happen, will happen. So why worry? Play, have fun, throw a party, force an unwilling girl into becoming your personal Barbie. Provided something bad or off-putting isn't waiting, there's no reason not to have this future happen.

What this makes me wonder is that she'd be watching near future decisions. But all decisions have far-reaching consequences. She plans for the near-future which leaves her blind when it comes to decisions with the possibility of not affecting them then, but coming back to bite them later.

She truly is far from infallible.

Which makes me think of Edward. We'd discussed on the Adult thread the different parts of the brain. Edward reads all that happens in the frontal lobe, the part of the brain that handles information sent from the other parts (language, sensory, memory, etc all have to be sent to the frontal lobe for the person to be aware--the "conscious" mind) then relays that information down neurons to spinal cord which then sends off the orders to the necessary things to make a person think, move, etc.

But there's Edward's weakness. A big one, actually. He gets the most superficial thoughts which may or may not be acted upon later and may or may not be what the person believes. That's not to say it's not useful. But it has extraordinary limitations. To get the full measure of a person you need to reach the amygdala, the memory center, located just behind and a bit down from the frontal lobe. That's also where Aro's power must reach (including a few other areas but I'll refrain form listing else I'll be here for quite a while). For example, during many TUGPM and Ed-Con discussions, I may think that an opposing viewpoint may be right and that will be the thought in my head, "Hmm, that's right". Doesn't mean I'll accept it fully or believe it. After so many years, he should be adept at reading such surface thoughts. But, many of his decisions could be based, not on concrete belief but assumptions. Or, part of both. Which increases the ability of being mistaken or making a wrong choice that much greater.

But I digress. :wink: Ignore my off-topic ramble. It just wouldn't leave me alone.
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llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

TrueLove1 wrote:I don't know if I personally feel like her motivations can be characterized as wholly selfish. The part that is selfish comes in when Alice is using emotional manipulation to get Bella to change her mind,
Absolutely agree... The only problem (and it really isn't so much a problem as an annoyance for me) with Alice getting what she wants (which as you pointed out, may turn out to also be what Bella and Edward want in the long run) is when she uses guilt trips to attain it.

You have hit the nail on the head with your insights into Alice's motivations and personality.

I have to say that with the whole vicarious living... I may be a bit biased and I have to leave room for the possibility that if Alice were trying to get Bella to do things that I myself did not like, I might not see it as just harmless fun. All of the experiences that Alice wants Bella to have are wonderful girly things that I enjoy myself. I wish Alice would come over and dress me up, take me shopping and plan big parties... :D
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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Post by LisaCullenAZ »

I have to say that with the whole vicarious living... I may be a bit biased and I have to leave room for the possibility that if Alice were trying to get Bella to do things that I myself did not like, I might not see it as just harmless fun. All of the experiences that Alice wants Bella to have are wonderful girly things that I enjoy myself. I wish Alice would come over and dress me up, take me shopping and plan big parties...

llovetwilight
- Only if you take me with you! :lol:

I also wonder - was Alice's trying to be manipulative? I'm not arguing that she wasn't manipulative at all. But the word "manipulate" sounds so much more sinister than what I envision for this situation.

What if she was just truly deeply wounded? What if her feelings were honestly hurt? And she just felt like she had to say something... she couldn't keep it in any longer. At least she was honest!

I'm just looking for an excuse for her here, you can tell. I just don't like to think that there is a malicious intent in Alice on this issue.

And TrueLove - what an absolutely beautiful character insight. I already feel like I know Alice better.
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Post by Alice's Grandma »

LisaCullenAZ
Such a good point. I love where this "living vicariously" conversation has turned.
Yes, so am I *big sigh of relief*

So which is it...Is she trying to control the outcome of her visions by controlling the situation? Or is she trying to fulfill the vision because of some inborn sense of responsibility?

Thinking about Alice's visions gives me a headache. I can't even image being a recipient. Alice's visions seemed to be straight forward until Jasper told his story. Alice saw herself with the Cullens? How could that be, she didn't decide to go there, she didn't even know they existed until she had a vision. For me, this took her visions a step farther than I understood. I'm beginning to realize that Alice could have foreseen Bella coming to Forks (becoming a vampire) even before Bella decided to come to Forks? *feels headache approaching*
Because of this I think she tries to fulfill the vision (especially when they are about her), but when other people are involved (who have free will) I can see her stepping in trying to control the situation so the foreseen outcome will prevail. My best example would be when Bella and Alice are on the plane to Volterra and Alice admits to wanting to just change Bella herself to get it over with. Alice sees the outcome, but when Bella and Edward's free will keep getting in the way, Alice wants to step in and control the situation so the outcome will prevail (with less angst).
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Post by Alcyone »

Or it could be she had made the decision to be vegetarian and her decision led her to a vision of meeting the Cullens because they would be closest coven also refraining from human blood.

Jasper could be that she woke up with no memory and made an unconscious decision to find more about herself, her family, or just wanted to meet someone she loved. Which led her visions to jump to Jasper as Stephenie has explained they have the most mystical relationship, they just are.
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Post by llovetwilight »

LisaCullenAZ wrote:
I have to say that with the whole vicarious living... I may be a bit biased and I have to leave room for the possibility that if Alice were trying to get Bella to do things that I myself did not like, I might not see it as just harmless fun. All of the experiences that Alice wants Bella to have are wonderful girly things that I enjoy myself. I wish Alice would come over and dress me up, take me shopping and plan big parties...

llovetwilight
- Only if you take me with you! :lol:

I also wonder - was Alice's trying to be manipulative? I'm not arguing that she wasn't manipulative at all. But the word "manipulate" sounds so much more sinister than what I envision for this situation.
It's a date! When Alice comes to find me we'll speed to your house (should only take a few hours the way Alice drives, yes?!) and all go out! :D

I do think that Alice's feelings were hurt by not being included in the wedding. I don't think Alice was trying to be manipulative in a sinister sense either... I think that everyone close to her knows that Bella likes to make everyone happy, that she hates to disappoint those she cares about and it seems like Alice uses Bella's guilt to her advantege... but come to think of it, isn't that what sisters do sometimes? My little sister sure knows how to work me! But I don't consider her actions "bad".

Perhaps it is better to say that Alice manipulates the situation, not that she manipulates Bella ?
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Post by amoredward »

So which is it...Is she trying to control the outcome of her visions by controlling the situation? Or is she trying to fulfill the vision because of some inborn sense of responsibility?

When I first read this question, I said a little of both. (A teaspoon of responsibility, a dash of control, stir together until smooth...) But now I lean towards the first one.

I say that when it comes to things such as Edward's attempted suicide by Volturi, she wants to control the situation and the outcome. Can you really blame her? (I can't) She is trying to do what she thinks is best, which is (fundementally) what everyone does--isn't it?

Another scenario--an old lady is going to walk across the street, but Alice sees her getting run over/dying. I think that she's trying to control the outcome of her vision. Therefore, she tries to control the situation to prevent said old lady's death. I don't see that as bad or having a negative effect on others (well, those who are imediately affected (old lady) aren't hurt)

So while Alice has (I believe) don't plently of good with her gift, I admit that there are some...less...selfless exploits. (Bad wordage there, but hopefully I can get my point across well enough here)

Example: the wedding plans. Sure, Alice could have left Bella (and Edward) alone and let them do their thing in Vegas. But I believe that she was thinking of how much Edward would love a "real" wedding, and also...how much fun it would be to plan! I guess that's just how Alice sees it--a chance to really do something for Bella that (in Alice's eyes, at least) shows how much she cares.

Yes, she does manipulate into giving her permission to plan the wedding (which Bella did give into, remember). But I can't help but wonder if there are things that Alice knows and we don't at this point. Who can say?

So now that my mind is good and scrambled, I'm stopping. you can say that my view of Alice's visions is similar to Alice's Grandma's. Vision=headache.
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Post by December »

LisaCullenAZ wrote:What if she was just truly deeply wounded? What if her feelings were honestly hurt? And she just felt like she had to say something... she couldn't keep it in any longer. At least she was honest!
I'm just looking for an excuse for her here, you can tell. I just don't like to think that there is a malicious intent in Alice on this issue.
I'm sure there was no malice on Alice's part -- just canniness about getting her own way. IloveTwilight -- I think you've hit the nail on the head when you were reminded of your own younger sister: I was thinking of it in exactly these terms: the endearing but extremely skillful manipulation that little sisters (and brothers) can get away with. Manipulation in this sense isn't a heinous sin -- it's right in there with telling Mom on you when you fed your spinach to the dog: one of the innocent but not-so-admirable ways that siblings get what they want from each other. And it probably underscores the extent to which Alice and Bella are coming to feel like sisters (and think how much more fun she must be for Alice as a sister than Rosalie is!)

All that being said, I have to confess I really get cross on Bella's behalf when Alice gets that dejected puppy look on her face and Bella's resistance crumbles. There's no malice there, but I'm sure Alice is doing it ON PURPOSE.... Sure, she's genuinely disappointed, but she knows exactly what will work on Bella and is not at all above making use of it....

Truelove1 wrote: For some reason I feel like Alice's vision of her own path does not change, it can't, because every step she takes is on the path to her own end. It's predetermined because she sees it and she is the one with the choice, and she sees it because it's predetermined. It's like Alice is in a loop. Her own path is not going to change.

This makes perfect sense to me! Thank you. Now I can stop thinking about this right there, before my brain begins to hurt like Alice's Grandma's and Amoredward's. After a while these abstract discussions of predestination and freewill are enough to make one's head spin. (And not half as agreeable as kissing a vampire).

Amoredward wrote:Edward's attempted suicide by Volturi,
Suicide by Volturi -- I love it!
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