Fun Despite the Depth! TUGPM Take Three

General discussion about the Twilight Series Universe.
silly_bella
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Post by silly_bella »

sc121376 wrote:
Yesm, I guess you could say that killing the "bad" is "better". But who is he to say who's bad?
he can say who is bad because he can see what they are thinking..if they are thinking of killing, shouldn't he stop them?
Except it sounds more like he actually found people in the act, kind of like the way he rescued Bella in the alley in Twilight. Or people who were violent and unrepentant.

Generally speaking, it's not all right for an individual to play judge, jury and executioner. But given that Edward is a fictional character, and that he knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt that juries are held responsible to, what these people were in the act of doing or had done and felt unrepentant about it, I'm not going to be too hard on him. He feels guilty enough about it on his own.

One reason the American justice system runs the way it does is because there is always the chance of convicting an innocent person, so the law is biased in the favor of the individual. If the average member of the jury could read minds the way Edward does, then all criminals would be punished. But they can't.

That's the difference between Edward and the average vigilante: there is no doubt about innocence of the people. He fed off the guilty. Not those who were planning a crime, but those who had committed or were in the process of committing violent crime.

Given the fact that he was a vamprie with a natural urge to kill, he actually showed restraint in killing only the guilty.

Hmmmm... I wonder if that roast beef sandwich I had for liunch today came form a killer cow?
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llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

Tennyo wrote:Still, Edward's hunting "bad" humans...I think that's different from what Rosalie did. Edward chose those he felt were "bad" (regardless of the fact that yeah, they probably were) and let himself be "impartial" judge, jury, and executioner. Why doesn't that sound right to me?
If Edward were a human, I would totally agree with you. But as a vampire it is his instinct and nature to hunt humans... That being the case, I have to say that in my eyes, his choosing to only feed on really creepy and evil humans makes a world of difference.

Lizcullenaz makes a really good point. Edward's purpose was not to rid the world of evil-doers. He was hungry. And since he didn't want to be a "monster" anymore than he had too, he was picky about his prey.
Last edited by llovetwilight on Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cocoa
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Post by Cocoa »

As I sat and thought about this, it dawned on me where all this "Edward playing God" was comming from. Edward is not Angel. This is not a TV show on the WB. As has been said over and over again...he was looking for food, he just had compasion for what food to eat. Like those of you who choose to eat free range chicken instead of more tender juicey kind.
devadasi7
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Post by devadasi7 »

llovetwilight wrote:If Edward were a human, I would totally agree with you. But as a vampire it is his instinct and nature to hunt humans... That being the case, I have to say that in my eyes, his choosing to only feed on really creepy and evil humans makes a world of difference.
I completely agree with this. It's sort of like choosing to eat free-range chicken because it's better than eating chicken that is mass-produced. You still kill a chicken, but it's more humane. When Edward kills humans who are murderers or rapists, especially if he catches them in the act, it's more humane than killing the mother walking her baby down the street.
Tua
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Post by Tua »

I don't think Edward was a vigilante at all. Isn't the basic definition of a vigilante someone who takes the law in their own hands after they have been victimized? Edward was never victimized. I agree with what has been said several times; that Edward was only trying to justify his decision to drink human blood by only taking those he deemed to be guilty. Were they? Probably. But I don't think that necessarily gave him the right to be judge, jury, and executioner. Edward's gift only works on what people are thinking at the moment, so at least at that moment, they had murder, or rape, or whatever in mind. He was more like the psychics in the movie Minority Report, trying to catch the bad guys before they acted. And how do we know that the people he got were serial killers, or rapists, or whatever? Even Edward couldn't know that unless they were thinking about their other vicitms at the time. Again, I think Edward was just trying to make himself feel better about his decision to drink human blood. And eventually, he couldn't justify it any longer, so he quit. That's why he was able to control himself in TW when he rescued Bella. He didn't want to do that again, even going so far as asking Bella to distract him to keep him from thinking about it. I don't think his motivation was ever to save people from the bad guys. Though the idea of him becoming a dective is really interesting! Get justice the legal way...

Rosalie, however, was absolutely a vigilante, and a bit of a sadistic one at that.
...it's not who you are underneath. It's what you do that defines you. - Batman Begins
greenmom77
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Post by greenmom77 »

jenni_elyse wrote:I mean really would anyone blame a lion for killing a person? No, he's just doing what his instincts tell him....no one says the lion is evil. He's just a lion.
Well, that lion wasn't once a person, never formed meaningful relationships with humans, and doesn't have the reasoning/brain function power of a human/vampire. ***Why oh why did I not find the Lex sooner! I could have been involved in such a lovely topic of debate*** .

Edward=God? I think Edward's ability to read minds does give him more of a right to pass judgment than any of us. True, he only "sees the surface", but on the surface he can probably see a lot of people's intentions before they act. He might not get ALL the background info, so no, he can't really do what God can, but he certainly has more to go on then we do.

Aro- Because he does see EVERYTHING, all the background, the thoughts and intents of one's heart, I think he is closer to God in his ability to judge :wink:. However, he does lure all those innocent tourists down into the sewer...

In conclusion: us<Edward<Aro<God :lol:.

Rosalie- I still can't come to terms with the fact that because she was raped and left for dead, she was justified in planning and then acting out her crimes. (I was date-raped by someone I loved and respected when I was 19. I have forgiven and moved on to have a great life. That is a more powerful revenge than forever playing the victim and letting hate and resentment rob me of the joys of life). Look what her vengeance has gotten Rosalie. Nothing positive. She is still mourning her former life, and still as resentful and unhappy as she was before she killed those men. If every rape victim went around killing their rapist, the world would be a scary place.
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Tennyo
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Post by Tennyo »

What I'm saying about Edward is that killing is killing is killing is killing. It changes the victim and it changes the killer-and I sincerely doubt it's for the better for either of them. Who's to say what's better for the world?

Perhaps Edward's killing only "bad" people makes what he did slightly less wrong. But it's still in there witha huge pile of wrong. And yes, he was looking for a meal. Let's not make it any better than it was.

As for Edward's "judging". I don't see his gift as fool-proof. The fact that we know he happened to be right about who he killed doesn't make his "God complex" much better, because eventually he could have been wrong.

This is something else I was thinking about for the moment, and please stop me if my facts and especially arithmatic were wrong:

Say Edward killed one person* every two weeks for three years. That's 78 people. There has to be seperate degrees of "evil" here. Put these people in front of a jury, regardless of right or wrong, and how many would have been convicted? And could we live with that outcome?

How many would have actually been found insane? Is it possible that at least one might have reformed and become useful in society? Not unlike some vampires we all know?

I guess it comes down to the idea that due process scares me a lot less than one person going around making the decisions, even if he is "special".

*There is also the question of whether he found them "in the act" or just knew they were going to and killed them. Either way, murder was not necessarily the answer.

(sorry, I'm fully aware that I am not factoring Edward's being a bloodthirtsy vampire into this-just trying to go for the black-and-white right vs wrong part.)
Last edited by Tennyo on Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sc121376
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Post by sc121376 »

I wondered about Edward's gift. Does what he is able to see give you a person's content of their heart? Probably not. He can only see the surface. Then there is Aro's. Would Aro's gift make a person more able to correctly judge the content of thier heart?
How is what you are planning to do, such as murder, separate from what's in your heart? do you actually think murderers have love in their heart, but it was just misplaced during the dirty killing deed? If you have love in your heart then your thoughts should be generally good, not planning your next victims route of death..
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Cocoa
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Post by Cocoa »

greenmom77 wrote:I was date-raped by someone I loved and respected when I was 19. I have forgiven and moved on to have a great life. That is a more powerful revenge than forever playing the victim and letting hate and resentment rob me of the joys of life).
Ah, but you see...you got to live. And not to deminish your experience one bit (as I know exactly how you feel) but she was gang raped and beaten to death. Her life was taken from her and according to Stephenie is there for frozen in that state. She is forever a 20 year old girl with that emotional copasity. You were able to grow and age. Where as that was stolen from her.
llovetwilight
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Post by llovetwilight »

Cocoa wrote: Her life was taken from her and according to Stephenie is there for frozen in that state. She is forever a 20 year old girl with that emotional copasity. You were able to grow and age. Where as that was stolen from her.
And motherhood was stolen from her as well. The only thing Rosalie Hale every felt jealousy about was her friend's family- her son. Rose will never have children and that still haunts her.
I'm really glad Edward didn't kill you. Everything's so much more fun with you around."- Emmett to Bella, EC

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