SM - It's Not Edward Bashing..."Ed-Con?" V.2

General discussion about the Twilight Series Universe.
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Carrie80
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Post by Carrie80 »

I haven't been in a HS classroom for quite some time. I am a teacher, so I have an idea what boys are still like. For me, this story is so refreshing from the norm. Perhaps there really are guys out there like Edward. It seems to me lately, no matter what your age, that the male gender has become somewhat apathetic towards women. I do not mean for that to be taken as a male "bashing" comment in any way, shape, or form. What I mean is that I have not come across too many guys lately that were willing to go the extra mile to capture the affections of someone they were attracted to.

Women have come a very long way since the old days--(or shall we think of them as the days when Edward was human?)

In his BV (before vampire) lifetime, women rights were little to non-existent, and the act of sending a woman to college was a novel (and somewhat unpopular) thing to do.

While there are sometimes during the stories that I loudly groan with frustration at Edward's protective behavior towards Bella's education, personal and physical well being, I also can appreciate this behavior. To an extent of course.

As previously mentioned, the apathy of the younger male generation (teens/twenties) is quite frustrating. Women are more accomplished now. Twenty years ago, all a guy needed was a 'cool car' the latest color 'members only jacket' and stocks & bonds.

It takes more to impress women now. And more and more, I am finding that guys aren't all that interested in working that hard. Perhaps high school is different now than it was in the 90's.

I read these stories and am actually intrigued by Edward's behavior and refreshed by it as well. To find a man confident enough to put the well being of his lady before "hanging out with the boys" is something I rarely see. Especially from a HS boy! ( I know he's nearly 90-but still!) To an extent it is nice to see a man willing to work hard to maintain a relationships spark.

As for Jacob's display of affection, I had a really tough time reading Eclipse with the right inflections and thoughts. It took me a couple of reads to get the meaning behind the phrases. On the first read, I was angry because I thought Bella seriously didn't him to kiss her. Then I reread NM and went immediately into Eclipse and I read it with a new inflection and interpreted it differently. I wouldn't go so far as to say, Jacob is excused because he knew she really loved him and would enjoy the kiss, because I would never ever want to hear the phrase or implication that a girl 'was asking for it.'

Re-reading Eclipse a few times, I was able to hear SM's voice and how she intended the sentances to be said or thought. Still, I'm not crazy about Edward's protective behavior or Jacob's physical inniciative, but I am beginning to see new perspectives.

But stil, for entertainment purposes, you can't deny that SM knows how to spark a situation worthy of a 60 page debate!
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Post by amoredward »

What I have been thinking about is this:

It has been said that (other than Alice), Edward has the least memories of his human life. (Something caused by the fever, I believe) Does this mean that he wouldn't remember all these details of womens' rights, manners, and all that jazz? If he doesn't remember what it was like to be in that part of society, does that mean he shouldn't be held to those standards?

Also, if we see some semblance of decent manners (generally speaking, of course), proper language, and all that jazz, does this mean that his behavior is part of who he is, not part of the era he grew up in?

I apologize if this is incoherent--I tried! Also, if this has already been discussed, that's cool too!
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Post by amontilado »

amoredward~just because we don't consiousy remember something doesn't mean that it didn't play a big role in shaping us. Most adult humans don't remember much before they were 5, but those years have a huge impact on how we relate to other people. Edward may not remember much, but he does remember wanting to go to war, and being one who would propose marriage if he fell in love. It was only 1917 when he became a vampire, still an archaic enough era that he would have come from an era with old fashioned values. The other "women" in his life have also come from the past, so that must have some affect too.[On the other hand those Denali women seem pretty liberated!]
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Post by LisaCullenAZ »

You know - one of my favorite stories is about a guy that says if you asked him to tell you every dinner he'd ever had for the last ten years, he couldn't do it. He has no way to remember and correctly identify every piece of food he put into his mouth every meal of every day.

But - he knows he ate. He's got the potbelly to prove it! And those fat rolls didn't come from nowhere!

That's a silly way of confirming what amontilado was getting at. Your experiences make you who you are, even if you don't remember every single encounter you've experienced every minute of every day for the past year. Or longer.

So I think Edward is truly a product of his era. And not just his era! But his social class, his cultural experiences, his education level, his religious upbringing, etc. So many things to consider.
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Carrie80
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Post by Carrie80 »

LisaCullenAZ wrote:

So I think Edward is truly a product of his era. And not just his era! But his social class, his cultural experiences, his education level, his religious upbringing, etc. So many things to consider.
And that is why I enjoy reading the Twilight series...men aren't like that anymore! All I need is a tme machine. :wink:
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Post by Alcyone »

amontilado wrote:[On the other hand those Denali women seem pretty liberated!]
The Denali coven, though, were born--if in or near the Mediterranean--during Rome's splendor. And Rome took many characteristics from the Greeks. And while many women had limitations, they were a lot freer than they would be during the Middle Ages for example. It's pretty impossible to find a more creative and freer era than the Greeks and the Romans. :lol:

Knowing them to be succubi, I would bet they could have been hetaera, the Greek version of a geisha (or would geisha be the Japanese version of the heteara? Which one came first? Chicken or the egg? :?:). These women were very free. They held dominion of their own lands, home and earned a salary of their own(so of course, they also paid taxes :wink:). Highly educated in dance, music, philosphy, politics, literature, art AND their opinions were highly respected by upper-class men like senators. In fact, hetaera were usually companions to these kinds of men which further heightened the respect granted to them. Some famous men known to have had a hetaera companion were Plato and Ptolemy.

Quick note: No, they weren't prostitutes. But they were far more than mistresses or the typical "companions" like we have today. Demosthenes, a prominent Greek statesman said, 'We have hetaerae for pleasure, pallakae (mistresses) to care for our daily body's needs and gynaekes (wives) to bear us legitimate children and to be faithful guardians of our households.'


Bringing it back to Eddie-poo, he may have the least memories but there are certain things you don't forget. Ingrained values, morals and the like aren't easily forgotten as they're a part of you. He may not have concrete memories but many parts of his character could probably be traced to his eduaction during those times. As well as the fact that he is more mature than typically seen in someone his age.

ETA: Page sixty! 40 more for new thread! lol
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Post by kdenae »

Carrie80 wrote:It seems to me lately, no matter what your age, that the male gender has become somewhat apathetic towards women. I do not mean for that to be taken as a male "bashing" comment in any way, shape, or form. What I mean is that I have not come across too many guys lately that were willing to go the extra mile to capture the affections of someone they were attracted to.
I agree with you 100% but I also think a lot of the blame for creating that attitude falls on the female collective's shoulders. For example, when I'm reading this series I get so wrapped up in Edward's chivalry for Bella. I love the way he takes care of her and is always looking to protect her and reassure her that she's safe. I love that element in the books. In real life, I'd be telling someone like Edward to back off and that I could handle it on my own. Why? I mean, there has to be some middle ground of course but wouldn't everyone love to know there was someone looking out for you, ready to step up and defend your honor? I guess it's just because I was raised to be an independent thinker and "not depend on a man" (my dad's exact words.)
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Post by StupidxLamb »

kdenae wrote:
Carrie80 wrote:It seems to me lately, no matter what your age, that the male gender has become somewhat apathetic towards women. I do not mean for that to be taken as a male "bashing" comment in any way, shape, or form. What I mean is that I have not come across too many guys lately that were willing to go the extra mile to capture the affections of someone they were attracted to.
I agree with you 100% but I also think a lot of the blame for creating that attitude falls on the female collective's shoulders. For example, when I'm reading this series I get so wrapped up in Edward's chivalry for Bella. I love the way he takes care of her and is always looking to protect her and reassure her that she's safe. I love that element in the books. In real life, I'd be telling someone like Edward to back off and that I could handle it on my own. Why? I mean, there has to be some middle ground of course but wouldn't everyone love to know there was someone looking out for you, ready to step up and defend your honor? I guess it's just because I was raised to be an independent thinker and "not depend on a man" (my dad's exact words.)
I see your point very well. I am a very independent person, and while I would probably accept Edward's chivalry better than Bella does, I wouldn't roll over completely either. I think that because Edward seems to put Bella's life in danger every day that she is a human, because of the fact that he thirsts for her blood, that he would do anything he could to keep her out of any other unecessary danger.
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Post by LisaCullenAZ »

A little off topic, but - what the heck happened to the lex, right? Did it just get back on this second?
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Post by kdenae »

LisaCullenAZ wrote:A little off topic, but - what the heck happened to the lex, right? Did it just get back on this second?
Yeah, it was down for a while. It always makes me a little nervous when the lex won't pull up. :shock: It's kind of embarrassing.
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