SM - It's Not Edward Bashing..."Ed-Con?" V.2

[llovetwilight]

And yet does that *really* matter when the things he does *with good intentions* have such awful consequences?

Perhaps you were speaking in more general tems, but what exactly are the "awful consequences" here?

Oh, I was thinking of this time in New Moon when he had those great intentions and decided to leave Bella and let her have a "normal, human life." Is my memory failing me yet again? *sigh* I really need to do something about that...

Hmmm. amoredward, I'm not quite sure where all that snarkiness came from...- This is why I qualified my question with "perhaps you were speaking in more general terms" and "what are the awful consequences here"

The here meaning with the application...

I agree that the leaving in NM is a totally different discussion and had very serious effects!!!

[amoredward]

Hmmm. amoredward, I'm not quite sure where all that snarkiness came from...

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to sound so snarky. (I went back and read it, and realized it sounded a little mean...) So yeah. I also did expand on that being general, and what I thought about the great application forgery.

[Mayde]

I don't hold Edward to a higher standard than I hold other characters. But I'm not going to hold him to a lower one, either, just because he is a vampire and not eating people.

Well said! Being a vampire doesn't automatically mean that the standard should be lowered. I personally don't think I expect too much of him. I just expect him to observe common courtesy, i.e. respect and privacy, especially when it comes to the woman he loves.

Perhaps you were speaking in more general tems, but what exactly are the "awful consequences" here?

Alycone and Sasha pretty much said it all. Also, forging Bella's signature may be the start of a very slippery slope...If Edward has to no issues with forging her signature on an application, what else is he capable of doing all in the name of "what's best for Bella"?

[Visitor]

Some crimes are considered 'Malum prohibitum', meaning, an act that is wrong because the law says it is: For example, jay-walking and not wearing a set belt. Then there are those things that are 'Malum in se'. This applies to things that are morally perverse or wrong in and of themselves even without the law making them so: For example, murder, theft, sexual abuse, etc. I see forgery as a little bit of both. Depending on the circumstances surrounding the forgery act, I may lean more in one direction than the other. Forgery for the sake of financial gain or identity theft . . . way more 'Malum in se'. Forgery just as it pertains to form filling . . . much more 'Malum prohibitum'.

My opinion on the matter depends on whether something has been loss or gained. Specifically, in this college application thing, Bella is not actually loosing or gaining anything. She could live each day as any other and her life would never be affected by Edward filling out that application. Because 'filling out' the forms and signing her signature does not imply that she actually has to do anything. If these were commitment papers to a mental institution, then yeah, I'd have an issue. Bella would have no control. She'd be taken to the nearest mental ward. Her will . . . gone. But there is a big difference to me between a forgery act that takes nothing from you (college application) and one that does(commitment papers).

Now, say my husband signs my name on a new car contract . . . we'd have a problem. No question. But say instead that my husband signed my name on a form that allowed us to receive a brochure for a new car . . . no harm, no foul. And that's how I see the Dartmouth application. It puts Bella in the running to go to school. But it doesn't actually put Bella in the school.

Just as an off-topic aside (and this is strictly a rhetorical observation): Edward filled out forms and signed Bella's signature against her will. Jacob kissed Bella against her will. Both men did what they did to give Bella options. Both were fighting for her life. Is one 'fight' any better or worse than the other?

[Sasha]

But there is a big difference to me between a forgery act that takes nothing from you (college application) and one that does(commitment papers).

Maybe it didn't take anything from Bella (except her *choice*). But, as she got in, it *did* take something from someone else, no?

Now, say my husband signs my name on a new car contract . . . we'd have a problem. No question. But say instead that my husband signed my name on a form that allowed us to receive a brochure for a new car . . . no harm, no foul. And that's how I see the Dartmouth application. It puts Bella in the running to go to school. But it doesn't actually put Bella in the school.

Putting in your name to get a brochure would be more like sending out for an application. This case is more like signing your name to win a car that you don't want or need and that you have *said* you don't want or need. And then sending along a million dollars with the entry to make sure that you win.

Just as an off-topic aside (and this is strictly a rhetorical observation): Edward filled out forms and signed Bella's signature against her will. Jacob kissed Bella against her will. Both men did what they did to give Bella options. Both were fighting for her life. Is one 'fight' any better or worse than the other?

Both are wrong. But, IMO, in one case Bella can do something about it and does (ie, push away and punch Jake), and in another case POOF and the papers are gone, and there's Edward, with a smirk on his face, telling Bella there is nothing she can do about it, the application is being sent.

[Visitor]

But there is a big difference to me between a forgery act that takes nothing from you (college application) and one that does(commitment papers).

Maybe it didn't take anything from Bella (except her *choice*). But, as she got in, it *did* take something from someone else, no?

I don't actually know if that's true. My college application process tells me, no. Getting in may not take something from someone else. Going may.

Now, say my husband signs my name on a new car contract . . . we'd have a problem. No question. But say instead that my husband signed my name on a form that allowed us to receive a brochure for a new car . . . no harm, no foul. And that's how I see the Dartmouth application. It puts Bella in the running to go to school. But it doesn't actually put Bella in the school.

Putting in your name to get a brochure would be more like sending out for an application. This case is more like signing your name to win a car that you don't want or need and that you have *said* you don't want or need. And then sending along a million dollars with the entry to make sure that you win.

I disagree, I believe your example still takes it a bit too far in the mandatory acceptance range. Bella's signature being applied to a college application has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not Bella actually ever goes to college. Likewise, my husband signing my name to win a new car would imply that upon my winning, I 'd have to accept the car whether I wanted to or not. The same is not true for Bella. She does not have to go to college, application being sent or not.

Just as an off-topic aside (and this is strictly a rhetorical observation): Edward filled out forms and signed Bella's signature against her will. Jacob kissed Bella against her will. Both men did what they did to give Bella options. Both were fighting for her life. Is one 'fight' any better or worse than the other?

Both are wrong. But, IMO, in one case Bella can do something about it and does (ie, push away and punch Jake), and in another case POOF and the papers are gone, and there's Edward, with a smirk on his face, telling Bella there is nothing she can do about it, the application is being sent.

But arguably, one act is physically intrusive while the other is not. And I believe that Bella can control whether or not she actually goes to college a lot better than she can control being kissed against her will. With the kiss, her punch was in response to an act that had already taken place. There was an immediate loss (her will to kiss who she wanted) followed by an immediate action (punch). Similarly, Bella responds to the idea of college by simply refusing to go (immediate response), while the act (filling out the app) carried no immediate gain or loss.

[LisaCullenAZ]

Sasha, are you really saying that Jake kissing Bella without permission is not as bad as Edward signing her college apps for her? Just to make sure I understand correctly...

Also - how do we know Edward signed those papers? How do we know he wasn't yanking her chain just to get a rise out of her? We don't know that anymore than we know he bribed the school. Though I'm not doubting the possibility.

And second of all. When Edward said, "I sign your name better than you do yourself." Does Bella say, "No Edward, I don't want you to do that. It's forgery!" Nope. She just starts talking about how the whole thing is a farse anyway...since she's planning to be a vampire by then. She doesn't seem that concerned about it.

I really really liked Visitor's post about the different kinds of rules and laws etc. It goes nicely with a post I wrote about an hour ago... and accidentally lost while trying to submit it. I didn't feel like rewritting it. But now Visitor has inspired me!

Some of these things we are discussing - like the college applications - seem to be viewed by some through purely "human eyes." What I mean is, we are holding Edward and the Cullens to human standards and human laws. They are not human! I hate to bring Harry Potter into it, but it's sort of like the centaur herd in Book 5. They don't recognize or adhere to wizarding law. Because they are not wizards.

The five year old with the tantrum Tennyo was talking about? Let's pretend he's throwing that tantrum because he can't sleep in his superman pajamas. And he's having a complete meltdown. What might his parents be thinking?

"Holy crap, it's not that big a deal! Why is he taking this so hard?"

To the five year old, it is a big deal! Because in his short life and limited experience, superman pajamas have become as important as food and water on his priority list. But to his parents, who have lived longer and have more experience under their belts, superman pajamas have gone down the list a bit and by now seem trivial in comparison with the big things in life.

And without sounding like I'm putting down the human race...

That's Vampires! Our views are incredibly narrow compared to the 100, 200, 300, and even 400 years of experience these vampires have on us. They see us like pathetic little children. Our philosophical musings are likely ridiculously trivial to them.

Stealing a car? What's the big deal!? I had to save my brother's life. That's more important.

Burning down a Ballet Studio? Collateral damage. Keeping vampires a secret is more vital, and they'll get insurance money anyway.

Bribery? Paying a random Italian man mega bucks to park and drive where I'm not allowed? I dare you to say my reasoning isn't justified.

I just don't think the Cullens would see this conversation about college aps and do anything but... laugh.

By joining the Cullens and their way of life, Bella is agreeing to a whole world of possible "immoral" practices. She asked for it. Knowing well beforehand what they do and what rules they overlook. I don't see that she cares at all.

[amoredward]

Lisa/Pisa/brilliant poster, I love that. I can't think of anything to add!

[Sasha]

Sasha, are you really saying that Jake kissing Bella without permission is not as bad as Edward signing her college apps for her? Just to make sure I understand correctly...

No. I'm just saying it is different. But I wouldn't say it is any worse, either.

And, Visitor, I'm not saying Edward is being controlling by making Bella go to Dartmouth. He is being controlling by forging her signature. Whether she gets a choice later on is beside the point.

Also - how do we know Edward signed those papers? How do we know he wasn't yanking her chain just to get a rise out of her? We don't know that anymore than we know he bribed the school. Though I'm not doubting the possibility.

I believe it says in Eclipse somewhere that Bella got an acceptance letter from them. Not sure where, though.

And second of all. When Edward said, "I sign your name better than you do yourself." Does Bella say, "No Edward, I don't want you to do that. It's forgery!" Nope. She just starts talking about how the whole thing is a farse anyway...since she's planning to be a vampire by then. She doesn't seem that concerned about it.

Does that mean it is not wrong?

What I mean is, we are holding Edward and the Cullens to human standards and human laws. They are not human! I hate to bring Harry Potter into it, but it's sort of like the centaur herd in Book 5. They don't recognize or adhere to wizarding law. Because they are not wizards.

And so the centaurs live in the middle of the Forbidden Forest, *not* in the middle of London, or even Little Whinging. The Cullens choose to live in human society. That is a *choice*. With it come some consequences, including, IMO, the responcibility to adhere to as many laws as they can. Granted they can't follow them all. But I think they should try not to break laws for the sake of breaking laws.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I, personally, think the Cullens *should* be held to human morals and laws.

That's Vampires! Our views are incredibly narrow compared to the 100, 200, 300, and even 400 years of experience these vampires have on us. They see us like pathetic little children. Our philosophical musings are likely ridiculously trivial to them.

Which, to me, makes vampires seem incredibly stuck up. Why are they so much more important than the guy whose car they stole? Or the family who live off the money they make at the ballet studio? Or the other people who don't have the money to pay off the guard so they can drive around forbidden streets? If this is the way the Cullens think (and I agree that it probably is) I find it extremely condescending. Just like it is condescending of the parents to ignore (or worse... laugh at) their child's tantrum. Just because it does not matter to them does not mean it does not matter.

By joining the Cullens and their way of life, Bella is agreeing to a whole world of possible "immoral" practices. She asked for it. Knowing well beforehand what they do and what rules they overlook. I don't see that she cares at all.

Some immoral practices that the Cullens partake in are necessary. Some are not. I think the line is very blurred for some of them. Maybe they need to look over their limits again.

[mysterioustranger]

JUST FOR CLARIFICATION:

SASHA WROTE:

Maybe it didn't take anything from Bella (except her *choice*). But, as she got in, it *did* take something from someone else, no?

I talked to Stanford admission officers when visiting the university (which is my reference), and they compete with other ivies when accepting students. Although statistics show a certain amount of students that only get in, if a student is qualified enough to meet their standards, then the admission officers would accept more students regardless of the [non-existent] cut-off mark. Also, the ivies (and I'm aware that Stanford ISN'T an ivy- but the admission officers were telling me about their competition when I spoke to them) need to accept TONS more students than the amount that actually can possibly attend. Why? Well, people who apply to the ivies usually apply to a couple of them- not just one. So you get into Harvard? Well, Harvard is aware that you might just go to Princeton instead, so in conclusion, no one missed an opportunity to attend Dartmouth since there is no cut-off number. (Especially when Dartmouth is one of the less selective ivies- more people will be prone to attending Harvard/Princeton/Yale instead if they accepted there)

Therefore, my views match with Visitor's. I'm glad Edward gave Bella the option of attending Dartmouth- and I don't think he did anything wrong since Bella was just presented with another opportunity. As for the forging matter being "unethical"- something like this is more trivial than morally unacceptable. Keep in mind that Edward also tends to "baby" Bella a lot, and most of the students who attend Dartmouth have a family background of alumni which allows them an easier [and therefore unfair] acceptance. & in my POV, it's the same thing.

(By the way Visitor, why don't you have an icon? It so hard to spot your posts- especially since you have a reputation for making excellent points!)