Was Edward an idiot to leave Bella in NM?

Welcome to our debate forum where we will have hot topics for you to discuss weekly. Just as a reminder we will only leave topics open for the week and then start a new one.
Cocoa
Clarifying Base Running for Edward
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Gettin' Lucky in Kentucky!
Contact:

Post by Cocoa »

ouisa wrote:In my faith there is a particular sin called "denying the Holy Ghost."
(Didn't know you were Mormon? Must have missed that somewhere. LOL)

I am finding the comparison to Edward's love and diety a bit mind boggling here at midnight. I will have to think on it futher.
December wrote:The question is....is even blasphemy forgivable in Edward's circumstances?
I think this question harkens back to character again. We are talking about Bella here, the girl who has an inability to hold a grudge (as demonstrated throughout Eclispe), an admirable character trait. One that if carried by all world leaders would create a very peaceful world. Its in Bella's character to forgive and to go even further, to her it wasn't blasephemy because she never felt as if she deserved the love to begin with. Is it blasephemy when you don't believe in the same God/love? I don't know. But its a very good question...
ouisa
Ignoring Renee's E-mails
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:09 am
Location: Being Dorks near Forks

Post by ouisa »

December wrote:Oooh. You're so right to point out that this not as simple as I've painted it in my previous posts: it goes beyond the question of whether you have the hardihood to hurt someone you love, in the interests of their ultimate wellbeing. In this case we're talking about something that does come very close to blasphemy. Indeed, Edward says as much. "When I told you I didn't want you, it was the very blackest kind of blasphemy." (NM p.510).

The question is....is even blasphemy forgivable in Edward's circumstances? Would you give your soul to save someone else's?
Would I sell my own soul to save the soul of another?

This question (and more so my rebuttal) is WAY WAY WAY beyond the scope of this thread. So here's the simple within the scope of this thread answer. Can't answer it without mentioning The Host. Oh my Wanderer

"If she dies and I could have saved her if I wanted to then who am I?.....Because I could save the Seeker. Of course I could. But it would cost me. A trade, what had Kyle said. A life for a life." The Host Ch. 49 (my page numbers are different so I can't give an exact page).

Yes. *I* would, Wanderer would, Edward would.

Fine you win this round December! But only because this thread has a narrow focus!

At this point in the story (NM Ch. 1) Is he leaving to save her soul or her life? Is there more value to the soul than the life? Edward doesn't think he has a soul. So is it truly a sacrifice to sell his soul when he already thinks it's damned?
Cocoa wrote:
ouisa wrote:In my faith there is a particular sin called "denying the Holy Ghost."
(Didn't know you were Mormon? Must have missed that somewhere. LOL)


I am finding the comparison to Edward's love and diety a bit mind boggling here at midnight. I will have to think on it futher.
Yes Cocoa. I am.

Yes it's a bit extreme of a comparison. But on a much smaller scale to be offered such a gift and to spit upon it.....
I don't think it's unforgivable as the sin in my example is, but I certainly don't think it's admirable. And when I pointed it out to December she thought it would make for interesting discussion.
Last edited by ouisa on Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
[img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/ouisa/gravity3.jpg[/img]

adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
Still Betting on Alice
Settled in Forks
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:36 pm

Post by Still Betting on Alice »

December wrote:
The question is....is even blasphemy forgivable in Edward's circumstances? Would you give your soul to save someone else's?
I'd like to answer this from Bella's forgiveness and from our forgiveness...

Bella's:
I see Bella's forgiveness of Edward much the same as I see Edward's leaving. By that I mean completely and totally Bella. Her love for Edward is eternal, nothing can change that. So I think that no matter what Edward had said, this blackest blasphemy being as harsh as it was'or even if it had turned out to be harsher if she had fought him 'it wouldn't have changed her reaction. Bella is Bella, she would have forgiven him. She is "unconditionally and irrevocably in love with him". In fact, I think she forgave him before he was ever even back. While she felt the worst pain ever in her life I think part of that pain was not only form the actual separation and the words he chose, but the fact that those words made sense to her. She always felt unworthy of Edward'to her he was just confirming what she thought she already knew. Much in the way Edward thought she would be better off without him and could heal. Both of these'such tragic mistakes.

Ours:
Well, this is trickier, isn't it? I think it is going to depend on our own beliefs.

Does it come very close to blasphemy'yes, but I believe that I am forgiven and I am asked to do the same thing for others. (Not that this always easy to do.) Also, in my opinion, he didn't actually blaspheme God, so I am not sure that this is going to be the thing that damns his soul.

Does it make it unforgivable? I don't think so. I know Edward is fictional (sigh), but I do have a kind of love* for him. And love forgives.

*"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs." 1 Corinthians 13: 4 and 5 (New International Version)
"He once again slid my ring into place on the third finger of my left hand. Where it would stay- conceivably for the rest of eternity."
Lucienne
Settled in Forks
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:13 am

Post by Lucienne »

For me, it's the noblest thing a person could ever do for his loved one. It's such a selfless act that he sacrificed and left Bella even if it caused him so much pain believing that she could be safe and away from harm if he's out of her life.
I don't even consider it a mistake. It was just a decision made out of his unconditional love for Bella. Leaving her actually just further proves how great his love is. He may be stupid in a way, because he misjudged the intensity of Bella's love for him. He left, believing that Bella can easily forget him, move on with her life and be happy. It's a mistake because it led Bella to seek comfort from Jacob (no offense to Jake lovers). But we must remember that this mistake was NEVER intended to hurt Bella. We all know that it's far from that. So for me, it is perfectly understandable and forgivable. What matters most is that he realized that mistake and from then on, he's done everything to make up for it. And he promised that as long as Bella wants him, he'll stay.
We may have been pained by this one event in Twilight series, but just imagine if it did not happen -- Bella said in Eclipse that she's known worse pain -- pain brought about by Edward leaving her. If she did not go through that at all, she may have never have realized how important Edward is to her and could even lead her to choose Jacob. So this in fact, is a major factor in helping Bella decide on whom she can't live without.
Last edited by Lucienne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cocoa
Clarifying Base Running for Edward
Posts: 2461
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:16 pm
Location: Gettin' Lucky in Kentucky!
Contact:

Post by Cocoa »

Ouisa wrote:And when I pointed it out to December she thought it would make for interesting discussion.
She has a tendancy to do that doesn't she, we should revolt and stop doing her bidding...
Yes it's a bit extreme of a comparison. But on a much smaller scale to be offered such a gift and to spit upon it.....
It is an extreme comparison...you could certainly stretch that analogy out to its fullest...Love=salvation, frozen in time=eternal life, But you are right...far beyond the focus of this thread.

As to relating it to the focus of this thread you could say that because Edward believed in the love and committed the "blackest kind of blasphemy" he was trading his soul for hers. Or you could then relate Edward and Bella's situation to that of Peter (really running with the religious analogy now! Its your fault so don't look at me like that...) Peter denied Christ for the good of the church, he was more then willing to go to battle and die for his faith, but he was told to deny so that the church could be built upon him at the foundation. It was indeed a horrific thing for Peter to have to do. But he did so for the Lord and the future of the church. And was thus forgiven of the trespass (though he is sadly still whacked by far to many who do not understand the events that transpired and his name is always dragged through the mud) and so interstingly enough is Edwards.

*I blame this entire odd post on December who made both Ouisa and I post. Its all her fault. LOL
December
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 pm
Location: Ars Longa Vita Brevis

Post by December »

Cocoa wrote:you could say that because Edward believed in the love and committed the "blackest kind of blasphemy" he was trading his soul for hers.
YES! That's exactly what I had in mind (only it was too late at night to put it clearly). Because I take seriously Ouisa's thought that if you loved someone as Edward loves Bella, it ought to be beyond you to repudiate that love. To trample that gift in the dust really is denying your soul, your self, your essence -- and defiling the sanctity of love itself.

And yet...could you do it for love? Because Bella's soul (both in the theological sense, and also simply her being, her happiness, her self) matters more to you than anything else?

If you are Edward, the answer is yes.
[img]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/DecembersPhotos/icefogbranchesphotocropmore.jpg[/img]
adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis
joanne
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 327
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:41 pm
Location: In the midst of the FOREST TWILIGHT,New York
Contact:

Post by joanne »

December...I love your posts. Yes, I agree, EDWARD and Bella's situation MUST be looked at on it's own because it is not like any other. You can NEVER say what is good for one situation is good for another. Everything and everyone is DIFFERENT.
"Time passes. Even when it seems impossible. Even when each tick of the second hand aches like the pulse of blood behind a bruise. It passes unevenly, in strange lurches and dragging lulls, but pass it does. Even for
me". (NM4)

"Losing track of time was the most I asked from life". (NM 4)
lindsmichelle
Jump Starting Bella's Truck
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:53 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by lindsmichelle »

Well, I won't lie and say I read all twenty pages of this thread, but I did skim over, so I guess it's time to put forth my own opinion on the matter.

Was Edward an idiot?

In my opinion, of course he was. But, he was an idiot for the right reasons. I noticed earlier that someone said he was arrogant for believing Bella not capable to love like him because she is human. I never thought of that, but I totally believe it. It is his fatal flaw. I'm not sure though if it is arrogance as much as a possible belief that he cannot be loved. He believes himself to be (possibly) soulless, and in his own words in Twilight, a monster. Who could love a monster? We all know the answer to be Bella, but I can understand how he might think the answer is noone. Everyone else found their love right when or after they were changed (with the exception of Carlisle) so they were monsters themselves. So, to Edward, how does something natural love something unnatural?

Okay, I think I'm just ranting at this point so I'll leave it at that. I hope I made at least a little sense.I pity Edward for what he did, like he said, it nearly killed them both.
luvedwardcullen
Learning to Love Green
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:00 pm
Location: Vancouver, because

Post by luvedwardcullen »

lindsmichelle wrote:Well, I won't lie and say I read all twenty pages of this thread, but I did skim over, so I guess it's time to put forth my own opinion on the matter.

Was Edward an idiot?

In my opinion, of course he was. But, he was an idiot for the right reasons. I noticed earlier that someone said he was arrogant for believing Bella not capable to love like him because she is human. I never thought of that, but I totally believe it. It is his fatal flaw. I'm not sure though if it is arrogance as much as a possible belief that he cannot be loved. He believes himself to be (possibly) soulless, and in his own words in Twilight, a monster. Who could love a monster? We all know the answer to be Bella, but I can understand how he might think the answer is noone. Everyone else found their love right when or after they were changed (with the exception of Carlisle) so they were monsters themselves. So, to Edward, how does something natural love something unnatural?

Okay, I think I'm just ranting at this point so I'll leave it at that. I hope I made at least a little sense.I pity Edward for what he did, like he said, it nearly killed them both.
I think you are totally right about Edward thinking himself to be a monster. I'm in my second reading of Twilight right now and the first time around, I have to say I was thinking "He has to know how gorgeous, sweet and perfect he is." But now I'm thinking, no he doesn't. Rereading the first book (the first time I was just blazing through to see what happened) I really picked up on the part where Edward takes her to meet his family. He REALLY is waiting for her to run away screaming. I guess I'm like Bella. The whole time I'm thinking......wow to actually have him to love...but he clearly doesn't see himself in that way at all.
"And the sound of your heart...It's the most significant sound in my world." ~ Edward Cullen
<a href="http://s317.photobucket.com/albums/mm391/luvedwardcullen_2008/?action=view&current=team-edward.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i317.photobucket.com/albums/mm391/luvedwardcullen_2008/team-edward.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
LisaCullenAZ
Fishing with Charlie
Posts: 863
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:31 pm
Location: AZ (duh)

Post by LisaCullenAZ »

Cocoa wrote:
I believe it is quite a large misnomer that Edward or Bella's love grew stronger from his leaving. Through Edward's leaving he didn't grow to love Bella more (you can't get more then infinite love), you can say that he realized how much she loved him...but not that either of their love expanded because of the leaving.
I agree, Cocoa. Bella and Edward's love was already amazingly strong and Edward's especially could not have been improved upon at that point. I DO think the relationship got stronger, though... in the sense that they were able to go further on the path of understanding one another and (this is a huge one for me) that his leaving -- and Bella's subsequent meltdown -- helped Edward in understanding that changing Bella is the only way to go at this point. His leaving was a huge contribution to his acceptance.

Visitor wrote:
Bella went after Edward. And once she did that, Edward would have been five times more callous than any one could claim him to be if he simply let her save his life, let her express the depths of her love for him, and then leave her . . . again. So personally, I think he did the right thing. He put the ball in Bella's court. He didn't say, "Great, you love me too? Good. Now I'm your boyfriend again and that's that." What he said was something more along the lines of, "Even though I love you with all my heart, if YOU have moved on, just tell me and I'll understand." He didn't force himself back into Bella's life, he was granted entry. He can't be blamed for the doors that Bella decided to open.


Very nicely put. I agree with you here. And I appreciated that reaction from Edward, I thought it was consistent with his character that he would not just assume his former position in her life. That was, again, very swoon-worthy. :)

Just wanted to comment quickly on the "denying the Holy Ghost" comparison...

I share your beliefs, Ouisa. Yes, it's an unforgivable sin to deny such a powerful thing as a testimony when you know you've felt its truth before. I also agree it's an extreme comparison, but I can see where you're pulling it from. The "spiting on a gift" bit was something I can understand. But I don't think that's what Edward did here.

In my opinion, spitting on a gift would be more like... if I'd being handed Mr. Right or Mr. Perfect on a silver platter and I turned and said, "No thanks, I don't need him. I don't want to be given anything for nothing, I want to deserve what I get. Plus I don't want to be the lesser half of a relationship, so yeah. I'll pass." That's spitting on a gift. Instead, I believe Edward was more like, "I've been given a gift here that I really don't deserve and I'm actually ruining it by keeping it. I'd better give it up. It's the only decent thing I can do, so I will... even if it kills me."

That's my two cents, anyway. :)
[img]http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd76/sprtygal/Cliff.gif[/img]
[color=black][size=84]Banner by Fry ~ Thank You, thank you, thank you![/color][/size]

Adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis.
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest