Love and Mythical Creatures

Welcome to our debate forum where we will have hot topics for you to discuss weekly. Just as a reminder we will only leave topics open for the week and then start a new one.
Locked
College_Student
Settled in Forks
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:44 pm
Location: South Carolina, USA
Contact:

Post by College_Student » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:17 pm

(OK, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because someone has borrowed my Eclipse book at the moment, so I can't look it up.)

I thought werewolves that imprinted were not the majority. I know it said not everyone imprinted, and it isn't certain that Jake will.
"Coming home from very lonely places, all of us go a little mad: whether from great personal success, or just an all-night drive, we are the sole survivors of a world no one else has ever seen." ~ John le Carre

leiahlaloa
Learning to Love Green
Posts: 92
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 8:32 am
Location: Keepin' it low key... laying around in my own meadow....erm riverbank
Contact:

Re: Love and Mythical Creatures

Post by leiahlaloa » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:05 pm

Be My Escape wrote:The Twilight series shows us very young people making very grave decisions on the strength of the love they feel for each other. Are we meant to think that they are old enough to judge their feelings accurately? If Bella thinks she's too young to get married, is she old enough to be certain she loves Edward enough to give up her humanity for him? Can Jake really know he loves Bella, when he is only 16?

Of course these are all fictional characters from a world of monsters and magic, which raises a further question. Even if you think that Bella and Jake know what they are doing, do you think this is realistic for real life teenagers?
This is probably the only thing that I've had trouble with in the Twilight series. I remember what it was like to be a teenager. I was one not too long ago. And I remember feeling "passionately" about someone and holding onto it for a year or so and then realizing I liked someone else.

Not that I'm comparing my own experiences to Bella's.

It's more that I'm thinking about how much I've changed since then. In the short four years that Bella and I have between us, I've done more growing and changing and just... figuring things out.

SM's made it abundantly clear that Bella is an old soul. Plenty of people said that about me though. And I still changed.

I don't think Bella would ever get tired of Edward. That's not it. And I'm not concerned by her level of devotion. She's proven herself. I guess I am more concerned about the message that it sends to the readers.

That love is... something that happens in high school or that when you meet someone they're going to immediately devote themselves to you and protect you... and sleep in your bed with no higher expectations than sleep. I'm not saying it can't happen, there's just a small percentage of a chance that it could.
"Speak--remind me that you are a rational creature." --My other vampire, Constantine. (Sunshine by Robin McKinley)

Find all my Twilight writings on my profile page here:
http://www.fanfiction.net/~leiahlaloa

ouisa
Ignoring Renee's E-mails
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:09 am
Location: Being Dorks near Forks

Post by ouisa » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:12 pm

AshleyAsAlways wrote:(OK, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because someone has borrowed my Eclipse book at the moment, so I can't look it up.)

I thought werewolves that imprinted were not the majority. I know it said not everyone imprinted, and it isn't certain that Jake will.
You are partially correct. In the old stories imprinting was considered to be rare. However Jake points out that the old stories might be wrong about it as it's been pretty prevalent in the current pack. As of Eclipse, 3 of the 10 wolves (30% of the pack) has imprinted.

In someways I think it is the unexpectedness of the whole thing that makes it more tragic in the case of Jacob. There is no certainty to when or IF it will ever happen for him (or any of the other wolves.) I imagine it is this uncertainty that makes the choice to form an attachment with someone doubly perilous.

It may never happen for Jake, but it will always be there hanging over him. Leaving Bella aside, does he commit his heart to someone he's not imprinted upon? After all he may never imprint and life as a werewolf is a really long time to keep yourself removed from love as a precaution. At the same time imprinting can happen at anytime and as we have seen with Leah what a cruel thing to thrust upon one's love. "I love you with my whole heart (for now) but at any time I will be compelled to leave you. Sorry...."
[img]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/ouisa/gravity3.jpg[/img]

adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis

dsolo
Wandering Through Town
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:57 am

Teen love

Post by dsolo » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:06 pm

Bake&Bite made a good point about the possibility of imprinting hanging over Jacob. Remember Taha Ahi (I hope I spelled that right) didn't find his soulmate until his third wife. It's possible that Jacob and Bella would have the life she saw with their kiss, and he might still imprint later after she dies. Of course, if Bella didn't like the idea of Edward being 17 forever, she probably would not be thrilled about Jacob being 25 for decades. At least with Edward she can join him.

As for the other topic, is this realistic for real teens, I agree with the leialoha (sorry, I forgot to doublecheck the name) who talked about the changes she went through in 4 years. I haven't been a teenager in a long time, but I do remember that emotions were much more intense in my teens and early 20s. I understood completely when SM said she set the story in high school, because everyone remembers their high school experiences. It's such a time of transition from dependence to independence, and the memory of the agony & ecstasy of your first love stays with you forever.

I think one of the most poignant parts of this story is that all three of the main characters are grappling with the emotions of first love and it's coloring their every thought and action. Edward is chronologically 107, but emotionally he's still 17. Jacob and Bella are teenagers that were thrust into caretaker roles at a young age due to loss of a parent (death or divorce). It's hard enough being a teenager and dealing with all the physical and emotional changes, but throw in dealing with being a vampire or a werewolf or a danger magnet on top of that and it's a wonder there isn't more damage done to their psyches.

sodapopper323
Settled in Forks
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:32 pm

Post by sodapopper323 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:28 pm

Well, I am 32 years old with with two children. At the age of 20 I was married and had a baby nine days later. Granted we are divorced now but that is due to outside forces (family)that didn't want us to work. What I am trying to say is that whether I was preggers or not I would have married him. To this day even after all the hurt and pain, he still carries a portion of my heart. At times my heart still aches for our family. In contrast to my situation, Bella is more mature for her age and Jacob is the outside force that is interrupting her true happiness. She knows what she needs to be happy and that the grass is not greener on the other side. Jacob needs to understand that he has not imprinted and eventually he will. I honestly believe that he is being immature because there is a point in time where you have to love someone enough to let them go. Even though he has seen what everyone else is thinking, he has not felt those feelings. Knowing and seeing is not the same as experiencing and/or feeling. When he ran away, unconsciously, he is still keeping Bella bound to the situation. It also shows immaturity because he left his pack and those behind who depend on him. If Bella had chosen Jacob and then he imprinted, Bella would have ended up like Leah. The only difference is that she would have lost both Jacob and Edward. Thus Jacob being the epitomy of a selfish immature teenage person.

My advice to girls in the real world is as follows
Get a college education, a career, buy a house, and then worry about getting married and having babies.
Just thought I should add that because I don't want anyone to make my same mistakes. Also follow Edward and Bella's example....

Visitor
Banging out dents with Tyler
Posts: 361
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 12:01 am

Post by Visitor » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:55 pm

Werewolf vs. Vampire wrote:I disagree (sorry :D . . . it is a debate)
I think Jacob has as much experience with Love as Edward does and maybe even a little more.
Lets not forget that Jacob can see, feel, and understand the emotions and events that everyone in the pack has ever experienced. So he has experienced Love at its fullest (sam and emily or even sam and leah). Edward may be able to read minds but he cannot feel emotions so he truely has NO experience at all.
Hmmmm . . . .but if Edward has had the same kind of access to the thoughts and feelings of his family, all of whom have been in committed relationships for decades, then, under your theory, wouldn't that make Edward just as versed in the subject of love as Jacob? In fact, wouldn't that make Edward . . . MORE versed in the subject, seeing as though he's had almost 100 years of practice in learning through others as compared to Jacob's . . . how long has he been a werewolf now?

See, I don't believe that Jacob or Edward should receive brownie points for the lessons that have been learned from other people's relationships. Besides, seeing and feeling someone else's reaction to something does not necessarily mean that you understand that reaction nor does it mean that you relate to the underlining emotions that cause it. For instance, Leah felt/saw/experienced Jacob's emotions but she certainly didn't like or appreciate the thought of seeing Bella kissed over and over again in her mind. Jacob and the others can see Leah is pained by what happened between her and Sam, but aside from a little sympathy, none of them can really understand her. Most of them just want her to get over it already.

I guess I'm saying that the werewolf ability to share thoughts and emotions does not necessarily create a complete and total understanding in the sharing. Otherwise, they'd all be in love with Bella, or each other's imprint, etc . . . The same is true for Edward. Just because he's seen true love does not mean that he understands it any better than the next person. In fact, I agree with Ouisa when she says that initially, Edward's ability to read other peoples thoughts and feelings hindered him in his relationship with Bella.

But I do agree with this statement:
Love is not something you say or think, it is something you feel.
Emphasis on YOU. YOU as an individual. Not as a part of a pack or a coven. You can't learn to love by proxy.

And just in case my initial opinion on this subject gets lost in my need to respond to this one thing . . . let me re-iterate: I do believe that Jacob is capable of loving someone deeply at the age of 16. But I also believe that Jacob has the potential to love better as he matures . . . not as he gets older . . . but just as he matures.
"Why did she have to come here? Why did she have to exist? Why did she have to ruin the little peace I had in this non-life of mine? Why had this aggravating human ever been born? She would ruin me."
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

[b]"So the witnesses first then."[/b]

[i]Edward Cullen, MS[/i]
__________________________________
Adultae lexiconum recipientes nuntiis singulis.

Lucienne
Settled in Forks
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Love and Mythical Creatures

Post by Lucienne » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:07 am

Be My Escape wrote:THis just in from our debtate moderator, December:

The Twilight series shows us very young people making very grave decisions on the strength of the love they feel for each other. Are we meant to think that they are old enough to judge their feelings accurately? If Bella thinks she's too young to get married, is she old enough to be certain she loves Edward enough to give up her humanity for him? Can Jake really know he loves Bella, when he is only 16?

Of course these are all fictional characters from a world of monsters and magic, which raises a further question. Even if you think that Bella and Jake know what they are doing, do you think this is realistic for real life teenagers?


Remeber to be respectful of each other. I know this is a serious hot button topic with many a fan. Enjoy!!

Well I think it is possible for teenagers to know and recognize true love at an early age. I got married at the age of nineteen and had my child a few months later. But this did not stop me from finishing college and starting a career. My husband is very loving and supportive in whatever I wish to achieve. After 8 years of being married, we are more in love than ever. Of course we fought all the time, after all, life is not a bed of roses. We've had our share of ups and downs but despite all these, we still strongly believe that we made the best decision when we decided to get married 8 years ago - and I was still in my teens back then!

wannaBcullengrl
Settled in Forks
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:29 pm
Contact:

Post by wannaBcullengrl » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:00 am

sodapopper323 wrote: Even though he has seen what everyone else is thinking, he has not felt those feelings. Knowing and seeing is not the same as experiencing and/or feeling. When he ran away, unconsciously, he is still keeping Bella bound to the situation. It also shows immaturity because he left his pack and those behind who depend on him. If Bella had chosen Jacob and then he imprinted, Bella would have ended up like Leah. The only difference is that she would have lost both Jacob and Edward. Thus Jacob being the epitomy of a selfish immature teenage person.
jacob has clearly shown that he is the least mature out of the three. he is a rash sixteen year old who cares more about his own feelings than even the feelings of the woman he claims to love. he manipulated that kiss out of bell even tho it made her miserable. then like sodapopper said he ran away instead of dealing with his problem. he is in puppy love (pun intended)

i believe edward is much more emotionally mature than a normal seventeen year old. his body may be frozen but his mind still grows. in his one hundred years he has never come across anything as strong as his feelings for bella. even marcus was impressed at the intensitiy of their relationship. his love is a reality

bella has always been very mature. (see everything renee ever says about her "old soul" "middle aged" etc) maybe its true that she doesn't have a lot of expeirence in the love/relationship department but she has had people be interested in her before and knows she's never felt what she has with edward before. also, her love for edward came so naturally to her. the electic current she feels between them in biology to the way she forgets to breathe around him. she fell in love with him withut realizing it. it was no jessica crush because he was hot. bella nearly died without edward and when she considered other relationships she was merely settleing with paris instead of her romeo. her love is reality.

my personal expeience is that i dated this boy and fell in love with him. he dumped me and i was heartbroken. i tried to go out with 3 other boys and each time it felt wrong. i was settling. then a miricle happened and the one i fell in love with came back to me. he was what i wanted all along. what i had been looking for but not finding in those other boys. i love him and my love is finally requited. if my mom wasn't the same type as renee and was dead set against young marriages, i really believe i would be able to make the decision to marry him. and i'm only seventeen.
"Did you know that 'i told you so ' has a brother, Jacob? His name is 'shut the hell up'"

Werewolf vs. Vampire
Settled in Forks
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:56 pm

Post by Werewolf vs. Vampire » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:36 am

sodapopper323 wrote: Thus Jacob being the epitomy of a selfish immature teenage person.
I disagree. I think Jacob loves Bella but is beginning to feel as if it is a lost cause. He is competeing against Edward- not only the love of bella's life but amazingly gorgeous and smart and wonderful. He kissed her because he thought if she knew she was in love with him it might wave things in his favor. However, it just made it harder on the both of them. But, he tried. Like he said- he didn't want to go through his life wondering if it might have made the difference.
How would you feel if you knew the love of your life loved you back, but you just weren't good enough for them. If you knew that, in at least a few ways, you were better for her than the alternitive.
It is true that Bella can not live without Edward, however we cannot expect Jacob to just get over it. If any of you had ever truely fallen in love you would know you can't just give it up. To Jake, having Bella leave would be "Edward leaving Bella esc". He truely loves her. And him making desperate attempts to make her realize she loves him back is NOT immature
.

dsolo
Wandering Through Town
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:57 am

Teen love

Post by dsolo » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:58 am

WannabeCullen girl, I agree with your points, but Edward is mythical (and rich) which is not usually the options with most teens in love. Don't plan on getting married until you can support yourself, which usually means education and a job.
I'm not saying this isn't your true love, just watch the timing.

The main reason that most of us aren't as worried about a teen marriage for Bella is 1) Edward is a 107 year old teenager 2) he's finished his education (multiple times) and 3) he's rich, so they won't be living in a crummy apartment and fighting over money. Nothing kills romance like fighting over money when cold and hungry. Most teen love is like a hothouse flower. It requires a lot of support from other sources (parents). Renee was a romantic that jumped into a marriage she wasn't mature enough for. It's obvious that Charlie has never gotten over her (Bella has a lot of Charlie's steady, responsible nature), so both of them were damaged by that experience.

On another post, someone mentioned that Robert Pattison spoke with SM about Edward, and one of the insights he got was that Edward has been stuck in the loop of aging from 15-25 for decades. He's never gotten to have the adult experiences of marriage, a job, bills, and all the other responsibilities. For Edward, this marriage is going to be the first truly adult thing that he has done publicly (college doesn't count, as you're still not a fully recognized independent adult). How other people perceive you has a lot to do with self image. If you are constantly treated like a child, you will either be resentful or act more childlike. It's much harder to demonstrate that you are indeed older. I have looked younger than my age for most of my life, which is great now that I'm older, but was annoying when I was in my 20s and getting carded all the time or asked what high school I went to. The worst was someone thinking I was 12 when I was 19. I can only imagine what effect decades of being treated like a typical teen would have, especially if you came from an era when you became a man at 17 or 18.

Adolescence is a recent luxury. For most of history, girls were married off soon after puberty. Of course, the average life expectancy of women was often less than 30 due to childbirth deaths. High infant mortality rates meant that some men had several wives just to produce one or two viable children. Look at Henry the 8th, 6 wives, 3 children and no grandchildren. Children were often put to work as young as 6, and were certainly expected to be working by 13 or 14. As nutrition and education improved, longer childhoods became possible. Our teenagers are physically capable of reproducing at an early age, but have not be programmed by society to assume an adult role at an early age.

To bring this back to our Twilight teens, Jacob is a more typical modern teenager, but I do believe he loves Bella strongly. It's wrong for him to run away, but I have to feel that he will return if the pack needs him. He's wrestling with a lot of emotions right now and sharing it with the pack must make it even harder.

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest