Love and Mythical Creatures

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Post by mandustries » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:31 pm

Searching For Topaz Eyes wrote:Now with Jacob. Jacob... Jacob.. Jacob.. *shakes head sadly* I always get the feeling that even though he is matured physically to 25 he is still a teen that just puts a mature mask over his thoughts and feelings. I think Jacob has convinced himself that he is in love, but we all know he hasn't looked elsewhere. He refuses to and never gave himself another choice.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Searching on this point. And I promise I'm trying to look at this from a more critical point of view, rather than holding on to my Team Edward mentality.

I can believe that Jacob is in love. I can believe that he thinks he is better for Bella, that his love is more human. But what I can't believe is that he will never get over Bella. No, he doesn't say that specifically, but his actions in running away and cutting himself off from the pack show a lack of attempt to even understand Bella's choice. Honestly, I can't blame him. If someone I loved chose someone else over me, I'd probably want to run away and be wolf-like too, if I could. But I think that Jacob runs away because he lacks the maturity to sit on his couch for a week eating Ben and Jerry's and trying to keep a semblance of a life.

I like how Visitor put it:
I do think that Jacob has a lot more maturing to do when it comes to love. But I guess the same can be said for Bella. The differences just seem greater to me where Jacob is concerned. I think we are supposed to be struck by the intensity of Jacob's resolve to love Bella. But I also think that, as readers, we are supposed to bear in mind Jacob's age ... Some of Jacob's actions read very mature and others read blatantly immature ... With experience comes understanding and with understanding comes maturity. So I think it is entirely possible for Jacob to mature into love. So that the maturity of love he has shown so far with Bella will be completely different from the maturity of love he shows if and when he finds his 'Eclipse'.
Jacob has yet to get to the point in his life where he's found someone he cannot live without. He will pine for Bella, sure, but his heart will mend. A part of him will always love her, but because he is human, he will move on, and (fingers-crossed) find someone new. His love for Bella will have made him stronger, better able to handle love again when it comes down the pike.

ETA: I just found this great quote that I think speaks volumes:
"Time cancels young pain." - Euripides

Those Greeks sure knew their stuff. :)
Last edited by mandustries on Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by d4nce4m01 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:36 pm

Well, to start off I certainly believe that if a person believes they are too young to get married, it does not mean they're too young to be certain they love somebody. In the case of the story I do find it strange that Bella doesn't seem to want to be married right now, period. I can understand wanting to avoid a big wedding, since she is a natural klutz, and she's afraid of appearances, but getting married isn't about the wedding. It's about declaring your love to witnesses that from now on and forever you are together, one unit, husband and wife. I think that Bella not wanting marriage, is akin to not wanting to declare that, and yet she wants to change into a vampire and spend eternity with Edward. So we know that she does want it. What she wants is essentially marriage, except that she doesn't. Contradiction? Maybe, or maybe it's just indicative of Bella tendency to not really think things through, or to roll with the punches, and keep rolling in the same direction despite disaster ahead. Which I think is immature. On the other hand, as was mentioned before people in love don't have to get married and can still spend the rest of their lives together, but I really don't get that decision, and someone would have to explain it to me. If it's just about conventions, then I think that's silly, but everyone lives their own lives, right? :P

Personally, I am against Bella becoming a vampire. I do not think that anyone could be ready to be turned on their former species, having to deal with sudden impulses to murder, and having to look forward into eternity and not being able to see an end. Vegetarian vampire or not, she'll still have bloodlust, and that's still monstrous. I think it's immature that anyone can think they'd be ready for that, or to want it. However, I do believe she is mature enough to know that she loves Edward and to choose him. It would be a very mature thing for her to realize that while we do age, and our body deteriorates, we don't change into some other person, we grow. Sixty five year old Bella is in spirit the same as teenage Bella, just having experienced more, learned more, and adjusted according to what she's learned. She would still love Edward, just as much as she did, and he would still love her, just the same. Appearances be damned. Old Bella and Young (in body) Edward seems a bit strange appearance wise, but to deal with aging, and immortality together and still love each other and stay with each other at the end of the day really is a love to forsake all others. I personally see it as a stronger love than that of Edward and Bella true love stuck in time for eternity. But that's just me. So once more I chock one up for immature Bella.

Really, I think she's supposed to be mature, but her actions aren't mature (IMO). But either way I'm sure she really does love Edward, and is correct about the strength of that love. Well, no' I've been told that by Stephanie Meyer, I don't really believe that, but since Edward/Bella is set in stone, for the sake of canon!discussion I will believe it.

As to Jacob, I was never under the notion that imprinting one someone would mean that Jacob has found someone he loves more than Bella. If we think from a wolves perspective, they don't love, but they do stay with their mates for life. They see a potential mate from another pack and they stick together. Jacob described Quil's imprint as gravity moving and suddenly she is the one holding you up. And you would be anything for her. Well what if she is like Bella (I know she isn't Bella), who has already found a true love, she doesn't need a lover then, does she? So he wouldn't be that. Imprinting to me is beyond love, because love changes, and imprinting doesn't. Therefore I think it is completely reasonable to believe that Jacob is really in love. He wont get the girl, but he is mature enough to realize what it was, a very very strong love that grew and was right. And when he does imprint he wont forget it, just as Sam can't forget what he had done to Leah. On the same hand I suppose I don't really believe that a person can only fall in love once, and only that one love is true love. And obviously Stephanie Meyers doesn't either (well except the true love part). Humans are complex beings, with complex emotions, and 'true love' declarations are over simplifying the matter. Jacob could potentially find someone else to love other than Bella, and if Bella doesn't get stuck in time I firmly believe she could find someone else she loves. I don't think falling in love is often a choice you make, it's something that happens, and it's not an age or maturity thing. The maturity part is what you choose to do with it. I think Jacob is really in love, and that he knows it, even though he's sixteen. But there is more love to be had, and deciding to want it is the next step. Immaturity is refusing to accept that (*cough Bella in New Moon cough*)

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Post by ouisa » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:56 pm

In real life I'm about as opposed to "young love" and marrying young as it is possible to be after all I married young, and divorced 5 years later while still young. I was so sure when I read this topic that I would write a scathing post on the topic. I even had a whole long discussion with Somethingblue about the idea this morning. It's not that I doubt that young people are capable of making serious decision about their lives or that their feelings aren't real. The problem with young marriages is that there is so much growing up left to do and it's so very easy for the two young spouses to grow in vastly different directions. It's not their fault and it's not so much that things or people changed, it's just that they were never fully formed in the first place. (I do think this can happen in older couples, but I think the chances are smaller.)

But as, others have mentioned, this is not a normal relationship. Once Edward and Bella are married and she's been changed (oh bite her already) Bella will be "set in stone" unchanging, unable to grow and progress. So my main objection to marrying young is completely nullified.

As for Jake....well that bears some more thinking.....

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Post by krstn » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:12 pm

For the sake of the story, I do believe that these "fictional" characters could fall in love as they did and as FAST as they did.

Throughout New Moon it is often said that Jacob acts older then he really is. I sometimes have to remind myself that he is only sixteen. He is 6'5", has more muscles then Edward, and can drive like a crazy person. I think Jacob fits into the age of a 19-20 year old.

With Edward, I can see why (sometimes) he fell in love with Bella so quickly. He has been around for almost 100 years and he knows what "real love" would be. However, I know Bella's blood is great to Edward, and he cant read her thoughts, but no one can get into Bella's head, so why is she so much different? I feel like Bella does sometimes of why Edward loves her so much...

Bella, I can relate to. Seriously, I felt at first it was lust. But who couldnt fall in love with Edward :] . At the end of Twilight, I believed that Bella completely loved Edward. After everything she had done and decided, I mean, thats true love lol.

But it all goes back to Fictional Characters. I know no one who can seriously say they fell in love at first sight, or even in a couple of months for that matter. After I have broken up with certain boys I thought I couldnt live without, I didnt go into a state of comatose... A sixteen year old boy truelly is not thinking about love. He is thinking about what Jacob was shouting in his head (eclipse). But all the characters are just so mature...

If a guy was interested in me, we had dated for like a week, and then he told me he loved me, I would probably laugh in his face... I dont know, maybe Im just a negative person, but I think love takes longer then that... I think TRUE LOVE takes times and loss.

Edward and Bella have a type of love that I crave to see. I wish a guy who isnt a vampire would talk to me like Edward does with Bella, or even hold me the way Edward does. But to me, eventhough he is flawed, he is perfect. His flaws dont even count after you name everything fabulous he does. Same for Jacob. Yes, he is annoying, but its kind of cute...

But would this story be as great without this love? HECK NO! Who wants to read about a girl who DOESNT get the hot vampire?

Im to cynical lol..BUT thats what I think...
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Post by Visitor » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:48 pm

d4nce4m01 wrote:But there is more love to be had, and deciding to want it is the next step. Immaturity is refusing to accept that (*cough Bella in New Moon cough*)
I don't know if I see Bella's inability to move on in NM is a sign of her immaturity. Don't get me wrong, I believe that at times Bella can be very immature. But the fact that she could not get her heart to mend in a neat and timely fashion is just a sign that she was dealing with a broken heart, in my opinion. Not a sign of childishness (which is what immaturity is).

Now, I doubt I would have reacted that way. In fact, I don't think I know many people who would have reacted that way. But the fantasy element in all of this allows me to believe in Bella's sorrow even when I don't see myself behaving in a like manner.

Besides, Edward experienced the same, if not stronger, sense of loss when he left in NM. It took him through the same (yet different) emotional roller coaster. And still, I believe wholeheartedly in Edward's capacity to love Bella as much as he says. So I guess I can't bring myself to discount Bella's response since she was not alone in that regard. But I guess that's why this question is framed only for Jacob and Bella. Edward being the non-human out of the bunch, his actions and reactions are harder to relate to . . . presumably.

But I agree with you completely about the marriage thing. I maintain that not wanting to go through a wedding ceremony is not indicative of her strength of love for Edward. But I can't deny that there is an extreme contradiction going on there.
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love and the mythical beings

Post by joy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:31 pm

I believe teenagers can truly fall in love. However, some teens let that love change who they are, who they hang out with, can almost become an obsession. Bella still remains true to herself. She never changes who she is for Edward. She has always been an old soul and thinks logically (except when it comes to falling in love with a vampire). Love is kind, patient, it is never boastful and so on. Bella has always been a free thinker never going with the crowd. She would never let a guy control her actions (even Edward couldn't keep her from going to see Jacob). When you love someone you need to feel secure and be able to let that person make their own choices even if you don't agree, compromise is a big part too. Love should bring out the best in each other and cause each person to grow. Some teen relationships are abusive,controlling that's not love. That is someone wanting control over someone else and forcing that person to do things he or she might not want. Unhealthy! Believe me I was one of those teen's in a very bad relationship. I thought it was love but now looking back it was definitely unhealthy and toxic. Jacob has love for Bella but he plays too many games, tries to trick too much for her love. He is afraid of losing her.
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Re: Love and Mythical Creatures

Post by lalaith913 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:02 pm

At first glance, it appears really inaccurate, especially given how Bella reacts in New Moon, and I would probably always believe that (still love it, however) but I read something that SM said about Bella's reaction. What would it be like to lose true love? How often does true love actually walk away?

I think we are meant to see them as more mature than the typical high-schooler: Bella is even described as being "middle-aged" and an "old soul." Edward has obviously been around a while, and I would imagine Jacob is mature for his age as well. This is not to say that their teenage bodies are not subject to moments of... well... adolesence, but on the whole, they are probably differently adjusted.

Is it really fair to say that if the characters in the story were 10 years older it would be more convincing? I think not. I think that would be kind of an unfair, biased assumption. True love is true love: it knows no years.

Sure, another thing to consider is that the book is from Bella's perspective. And, I believe SM said, that some of her experiences with Edward might be a little exaggherated because she is so head-over-heels. In that case, things might not be quite as shockingly mature. Bella might just assume everything to be so much more because it is the first time she has truly experienced love.

I'm not so positive that Bella really thinks she's too young to get married. I really think she is just afraid that the same thing would happen that happened between her parents. She knows in her heart of hearts that her and Edward have something much more, but kids are often deeply affected by what happens with their parents. The idea of waiting a few years to marry gives her comfort because she, in a way, has to believe that things could've really worked between Charlie and Renee if they had not rushed into things. So, she might well be mature enough to make the decision to give up her humanity.

However, who among us, no matter how old we are, would be ready and willing to jump into the decision she is making? Or, conversely, if we were so in love with someone, no matter the age, the hesitation would be absent. I don't think age has anything to do with this case. It's such a rare (or nonexistant) situation. The only thing it can be really comparable to is being willing to risk your life for someone. In that case, we would all like to say that we would give our life for someone we cared about, but when the moment came upon us, would we really be able to do it? I think Bella is something like this. Not that I think she will shy away from the moment if it comes, but when Edward (or whoever) really goes to change her, who knows if she will actually be calm and ready and willing to accept it? She is now, but the moment isn't actually upon her yet.

As for Jake and everyday teenagers, I'm going to say yes. Now, I know it was back in the 70s and 80s, but my parents met in high school, fell in love, and my mom married young. They're still together, so I think it's thoroughly possible. While I think it's possible, I think it's rare. More often than not, I think it's confused with lust. But Bella and Edward are able to make the distinction, and I think that makes a word of difference.

A friend of mine gave me some advice once that I adapted on that I think fits this: we often confuse love. A lot of times, we might think that we've fallen in love, but in reality, the feelings we have for someone are just the strongest we've ever felt. Because we have never felt anything stronger, we assume that it is the most we can; therefore, we are in love, but that could easily be inaccurate.

It's really hard to say if this is feasible in the everyday world, but I'm going to go with yes.

In the case of Jacob, he fights for the girl he loves. Believe me, I've seen that. Maybe he was out of line sometimes. I've seen that too. It happens. I think that if the supernatural element were taken out, the relationships of the characters would still be similar, and I think the reactions would very closely mirror teenage romance.
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Re: Love and Mythical Creatures

Post by ouisa » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:13 pm

lalaith913 wrote: I'm not so positive that Bella really thinks she's too young to get married. I really think she is just afraid that the same thing would happen that happened between her parents. She knows in her heart of hearts that her and Edward have something much more, but kids are often deeply affected by what happens with their parents. The idea of waiting a few years to marry gives her comfort because she, in a way, has to believe that things could've really worked between Charlie and Renee if they had not rushed into things. So, she might well be mature enough to make the decision to give up her humanity.
I have long thought that it is not so much that Bella doesn't want to BE married or that she doesn't think they will work out like Charlie and Renee. I have always thought instead that Bella doesn't want to GET married. She shys away from the spectacle, the public knowledge and declarations and the hoopla. She's more worried about what other people will think of her and her relationship rather than what she thinks of it.

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Post by Bella Rose » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:27 pm

I want to say teenagers can fall in love or however old you are it is possible, but I wouldn't be able to trust my judgement. I would be afraid that myself or others are saying it in hope that they can find love no matter how old. I haven't been lucky enough to discover it or maybe I have but am just too shy to admit it. So it is hard for me to go with this topic. Love is a bit complicated to think about. Maddening really.

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Post by anaidcullen » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:55 pm

I think Bella knows what loves Edward even though he is her first boyfirend, her first love, her first everything. Now if she does not want to get married has to do with her parents not woriking out their relationship and knowing that they were young, but even she says that her own mother thinks she was born 25 years old or something like that.
I don't know about Jacob, I think he loves Bella, but I don't think is going to be forever.
I believe that there is always someone that is here in this world specially to be with someone else, sometimes they never meet or maybe it takes acouple of tries before you find that someone, Edward took 100 years to find his someone, and I think it is Bella no matter if she is 18yrs old.I fell trully inlove at the age of 19 with my someone who was 17 when I say him, now we are married and I love him so even though if this characters are fiction, love is real and it comes at any time, when you are ready love will come arround.
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