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Re: Mature?

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:28 am
by MegFairy
mandustries wrote:Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree on a point you've made Werewolf vs. Vampire. (This is the place to debate, right ... No hard feelings?) :)
Werewolf vs. Vampire wrote:I think they both love Bella, Edward just got to her first. If she had found Jacob, gone out with him, loved him (which she does), and then met Edward I think it would be a totally different story. She would have been like every other girl in the school. Granted she might have been eaten, but if she wasn't she would live happily ever after with Jacob. So I think YES Jacob is mature enough for her when not placed in comparison with Edward . . . . because he is 107.
I think there is no way, even is she had met Jacob and Edward in the reverse order, that she would have felt like any other girl at Forks High when meeting Edward. He would certainly feel the same about her, a point which SM seems to make perfectly clear. Bella is, after all, "La Tua Cantante." Her blood would not have been any different had she met Jacob first. She might have fallen madly in love with him, but she would have had the same extraordinary bond with Edward. It would just be a whole lot sadder for all parties involved, because Bella would have had to make an even more difficult choice, which, (to tie it back into the original question) would have shown her maturity, although not her selflessness ...
i think it's a delicate balance between these two views. like Jake says in Eclipse, it would have been natural for them to be together and if there was no monsters or magic they would have effortlessly perfect.
does that even make sense? i'm a mess and i'm not even sure i'm explaining myself fully

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:36 am
by MegFairy
nat_and_edward_4ever wrote: i dont think jaake actually loves beela though. i think that what he has is only the idea. i dont think what he has is true love but just an infatuation. :) :D
really?! i think he is most certainly in love with her. i'd be interested to hear your reasons for his feelings being only infatuation. in my humble opinion, his attention to detail, caring manner, unconditional acceptance, and persistance (but also knowing when to step to the sidelines) all point to him being in love. sure he's not as mature as edward, but what 16 year old is?

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:33 am
by BellaxEdwardxLove
As Stephenie has said before, Bella is older than her body. All the characters are older than their age, well the main characters at least. As for Jake being in love with Bella, I'm sure Jake loves Bella, but Bella had already made her decision before Jake came into the picture, he just complicated things.

Bella is skeptical because her mother went through marrying at a young age and it didn't work out; Bella doesn't want it to be like that. The characters are likely to judge the future based on the way their parents lives were because they were brought up to do better. Yes, I know they are fictional, but, excluding the mythological disputes, this book has a realism that is hard to beat -- based on love conquering all and that you have to go through things to be in love, like in the real world. It's not all roses and butterflies with love, it's cheating and fighting and trying to win.


Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:28 am
by critical
I feel as though all of them, even though their maturity is beyond their years, are acting towards their first loves (for the sake of argument here, bear with me) as you would expect any teenager to do, in the beginning at least.
Yes, Edward is 107 years old, Jake's grown emotionally, physically and mentally through his correspondence with the pack and what he's been through with Bella and Renee tells us of Bella being a 'middle aged' teenager, but it is for them as it is for us, uncharted territory. Feeling and watching others go through the motions of love around you doesn't act as a substitute for what an individual may go through when experiencing it for themselves.

Sometimes, in parts of the books where Edward and Bella particularly are being intimate, I feel Stephenie has them revisiting their innocence and humanity through their apparent vulnerability. When they're together, they allow themselves freedom from the restraint they place on themselves when they're in the "outside world". Together, they're much more open. I like to think of these times as their escape, when they can allow themselves to be insecure or childish or carefree.

When everything falls away, we're all on the same page as each other ;]

Hmm, I've probably raised more questions than I've answered :roll:

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:20 am
by maximum~calories
I don't really think that age has much to do with determining how true someone's love is. There are many factors that affect when you truly find the love of your life some being. Different people reach emotional maturity at different ages. Bella has been constructed as a mature character who doesn't seem like someone to overestimate her feelings or not think huge decisions like marraige / becoming a vampire (!) through carefully.

Jacob, however, struck me as a bit less mature. I do believe he loves Bella but I don't think that he's going to stick around forever like he says he will. He is after all a werewolf. He might someday imprint after finding the girl who is actually his soulmate. Look what happened with Sam, Emily and Leah.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:31 am
by missjulie
First, here's my argument. Or rather, my opinion? Haha, whatever :D

I think its realistic. I didn't know that kind of love when I was their age, but I know it now. Its not something that happens everyday, but when it does... well... you know the rest. I have two real life examples of people I went to school with like Bella and Edward (in their relationship anyway). Both couples went through high school and college before getting married, but we all knew they would never be apart. It was so obnoxiously obvious. I think the only thing stopping them from getting married then was their parents and a load of other people urging them to 'shop around'.

I'm very happily married now and the idea of finally finding that one person who completes you in every way and then 'shopping around' before settling down is just utterly absurd. I went through all the typical relationships before I met my husband, but there's a difference between passing the time and spending the rest of your life with someone. I am still cynical, except when it comes to love. When you know... you just know. I think Bella and Edward are like that. Edward puts it nicely "I'm tired of trying to stay away from you, so I'm giving up." Take out the vampire part, what makes them different from the couples I mentioned above? Not much really.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:52 am
by mandustries
critical wrote:I feel as though all of them, even though their maturity is beyond their years, are acting towards their first loves (for the sake of argument here, bear with me) as you would expect any teenager to do, in the beginning at least.
Yes, Edward is 107 years old, Jake's grown emotionally, physically and mentally through his correspondence with the pack and what he's been through with Bella and Renee tells us of Bella being a 'middle aged' teenager, but it is for them as it is for us, uncharted territory. Feeling and watching others go through the motions of love around you doesn't act as a substitute for what an individual may go through when experiencing it for themselves.

Sometimes, in parts of the books where Edward and Bella particularly are being intimate, I feel Stephenie has them revisiting their innocence and humanity through their apparent vulnerability. When they're together, they allow themselves freedom from the restraint they place on themselves when they're in the "outside world". Together, they're much more open. I like to think of these times as their escape, when they can allow themselves to be insecure or childish or carefree.

When everything falls away, we're all on the same page as each other ;]

Hmm, I've probably raised more questions than I've answered :roll:
A cheer for you critical. :)

I've just re-read the part in Twilight where Edward first stays the night (with Bella's knowledge). They're so cute while they're laying in bed, talking about, well, you know. :oops: The are much more like normal teenagers having an awkward conversation about how far they've gone, or are willing to go, for love or lust. Even Edward, with his 107 years of "experience" isn't quite willing to say the word sex. It's actually a sign of maturity that they're even talking about it at all ... but the whole setting of the scene, lying in the dark, not having to look at each other, not saying expressly what they mean, is so innocent. It's lovely.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:43 am
by Swimchik
Personally, I do not believe that that sort of love is realistic. The Bella- Jacob love is much more realistic because it had time to evolve from friendship to something more. Also, that is why I believe the Edward/Bella love is so much more popular among Twilight fans. It is so unattainable, and yet this ordinary girl got it. To reply to the other part of the question, I think Jacob is old enough to know what love is, and moreover that he is in love with Bella. i say this because it is not like Jacob is only lusting after Bella because she is "hot", no, instead he honestly cares about her well-being and wants her to be happy with him(Jacob).

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:57 am
by Lindsay1278
Congrats to Swimchik for finally making some sense! Jacob and Bella's love is completely realistic, almost everyone knows a couple that started out as friends, turned into something more, and stayed together ever since. People, especially the teenage, hopeless romantics, love to see Edward and Bella together because they imagine themselves as Bella. Bella is at some parts rather annoying and we're all very aware of her flaws, yet somehow she managed to get Mr. Perfect anyway. Half of the reason you all think Edward is so perfect is in how Bella describes him though, if she were describing Jacob or Mike or even Quil or Embry in the same way all the girls would be swooning over them. We don't get to see as many of Edward's flaws, but we have a front row seat to see every negative aspect of Jacob's personality.

Missjulie wrote about seeing Edward and Bella's type of relationship in real life, and I have to agree with that. But only to a certain extent. In real life it's easy to fall in love quickly and stay in love forever... but I've never actually met anyone who planned on actually living forever. I've never met anyone who fell in love on the basis of the smell of their beloved's blood. And usually, when these fairytale couples get married, one of them doesn't go on a crazy blood-lust killing spree shortly after. Edward and Bella's relationship is realistic and somewhat healthy now, but as both Edward and Bella admit to feeling, it is extremely unbalanced. What's going to happen to them when they finally have forever to be together. It's not fair for us to try and decide whether or not their love will stay realistic because no one's ever had that long to be together.

Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:02 pm
by Sarah921
I think that this is a special scenario. Bella, Edward, and Jacob are each dealing with issues that touch outside of normal teen realtional boundaries. Eternal life, shape-shifting, etc. I think that adds a special dynamic to their interactions with one another that calls for an additional level of maturity and certainty as they make decisions.

Reading through Bella's thoughts, I look at it from the perspective of being exactly ten years older than her and I think she is handling it better than I would have. I know several girls my age that would do a lot worse. She thinks a lot. She assesses her wants and her needs, she considers the impact that her decisions will have on others, and I think that is another marker of her maturity level.

I think it could be realistic for teens in the real world on a case by case basis. Sometimes individuals are stronger, more disciplined, and capable as a bi-product of their circumstances. Older people who haven't been through the same things could actually be the opposite.

On top of all that, there is still something to be said for true love. Bella thought she lost Edward once, and even the prospect of having Jacob to love and be loved by, cannot remove the truth that she would die without Edward.