Are Vampires Dead?

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ceenindee
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Post by ceenindee »

I don't think of vampires as alive, but I don't think of them as dead either. They just exist. From a strictly scientific point of view, they aren't alive because they can't have kids, they don't grow, and they have no metabolism (not the normal kind, at least). And you can't say something's alive if it can't die--the concept of living is meaningless otherwise. Vampires can be destroyed, like a house that's burned down, but if they can't die, then they were never really alive in the first place. Neither could you call them dead, not if they aren't in a state of living. You don't say a rock is dead. It just is. Right?

Their sentience confuses me though. That's something only living things have. It's like a leftover from their human selves.

So far as ghosts are concerned, well, they can kind of be the same thing. Let's assume for a minute that they exist. People consider ghosts leftovers from a human being, and they have a tendency to move things around. If a ghost shuts a door, that doesn't mean the door is alive or dead or anything. More like it's possessed. I'm not sure if that's the right word, because I tend to think of possession as something like The Host--one sentient trying to invade another's body. But, in a weird way, vampirism is sort of like that. The human dies, and the ghost of it ends up in a statue of a body, with the ability to move it around. Sort of like a restless spirit shacking up in a spin-y chair and making it go around in the middle of the night. That happens, apparently. :lol:

If Edward were a ghost, I would definitely consider it death for Bella to try and be with him. Being bitten by a vampire has definite consequences, a change of physical existence, but becoming a ghost is trickier. There's no assurance she'd become the right kind of ghost, or if she'd even become a ghost at all. Vampires are always physically present, but a ghost comes and goes randomly. Vampires have free will, but ghosts, from the stories I've heard, don't. They're attached to their homes or the places of their deaths. Ghosts can't talk with the living either. Bella would be giving up a lot more. Without a body, human or vampire or otherwise, she'd hardly be alive.

At least that's the way I see it. It's interesting stuff.
edward_is_better_
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Post by edward_is_better_ »

I just wanted to comment on blood not being food.living organisms eat blood,such as leeches or Mosquitos.its not exactly an odity.vampires don't need to have a beating heart either.different organisms can live off different means of anotomy.we relate the anotomy of a vampire so closely to that of humans only because they are so close to them speaking strictly of the physical set up.certain plant even have different parts.such as vascular and nonvascular plants.one has a vein like system the other doesn't,but they're still plants all the same to us.the way we learn science and of living things leaves us to strictly depend on those guidelines,but biology is constantly broadening its horizons so we can hypothesize on what's living the same way they can change those beliefs with a sudden discovery.
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I folded my arms across my chest. "That is <i>so</i> unfair.And Edward kind of already used that on me."
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Post by Still Betting on Alice »

Why I think becoming a Vampire seems different'

For me what it boils down to is I feel that Vampires are transformed humans, not dead humans. They retain their human traits, personalities'their humanity. While you can say that ghosts retain their human traits, it is also fair to say that they had to die to become what they are. Zombies are transformed, but really what kind of life would you say that zombies have? It doesn't appear that they have taken their human traits with them.

So I guess what I am trying to say is that I feel it is different because Vampires transform and retain their humanity. As TrueLove1 mentioned Edward's words, Bella will still be Bella. (Just more durable :wink: ) Maybe that's why it seems so different, because we identify with the humanity of the Cullens so easily'
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Post by SparklingDiamond »

December wrote:
If Bella were to die -- in the ordinary way -- to be with him, knowing that she would still exist as a ghost, would we feel that she was still going to be alive? That this wasn't dying? I agree that becoming a vampire seems different, but why?
Eventually, all of our bodies will die. Depending of course on your own personal belief system, we will all also ascend to a new spiritual life on a different plane. In this new spiritual plane, our soul will live eternally.

Vampires, however, seem to skip the different plane part of that philosophy, in order to live eternally here on earth in the physical and spiritual form. In my mind, this is where the difference comes in. Vampires are a more realistic illusion of life, or human life, if you will, than that of a sprit or a ghost.

They are an anomoly. The same type of anomoly as an earthbound spirit that is either here in a residual or intelligent form. It's something that's not supposed to exist. So, if something is not even meant to exist, can it be classified as either dead or alive?
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Post by Team Edward *ash* »

I've noticed that many people have been talking about the vampires being frozen, in time and stuck, so not dead, just not changing. But really, why are we not looking at the wolves this way? I mean they started this prejudice, but are they so different? because Bella got mad at Jake when she found out that he isn't aging.... for right now anyway. I think of the wolves very similar to the vampires, but instead of cold and sete in stone, they are like cookie dough. They start out as dough but after the transformation, or baking, they are turned into cookies, and will never be turned back, Because as you know, you can't unbake cookies. So I know this post was probably extremeley confusing, so I will recap my thoughts simply:

<3 Vampire + change = rock, cold,& can't be changed

Wolves + change = cookie, warm,& can't be unbaked
In the meantime, Bella was with Eric. Later, she met up with Edward and made him quack like a duck. About a month later, they're all on the Maury show, and Bella is Eric's baby's mama. They had twins Amii and Eastmann. When Bella told Renee, it turned out she was pregnant too...with triplets...Olga, Hamburger Phone and Ieshia...Hamburger Phone is a whatsit.
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Post by Cocoa »

SparklingDiamond wrote:December wrote:
If Bella were to die -- in the ordinary way -- to be with him, knowing that she would still exist as a ghost, would we feel that she was still going to be alive? That this wasn't dying? I agree that becoming a vampire seems different, but why?
Vampires, however, seem to skip the different plane part of that philosophy, in order to live eternally here on earth in the physical and spiritual form. In my mind, this is where the difference comes in. Vampires are a more realistic illusion of life, or human life, if you will, than that of a sprit or a ghost.
This caught my attention because it harbored back to my initial thought on perspective. I believe you are right in that the Cullen family almost thinks of themselves as ghost like...stuck forever in a doomed state. And Bella's perspective is completely different, she doesn't see it is death but more like a "change" in being. Is this because she is given a choice about it, that she is justifying the act as not a death but a rebirth? Where as because the Cullens had no choice it was indeed a death? I almost rather think that because the choice was not there for the Cullens that it was a death, being that they always see the situation as having given up a life, verses Bella who sees it as gaining a life. Odd what a difference just having a choice in the matter can change your perspective on life and death.
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Post by mandustries »

Cocoa wrote:
SparklingDiamond wrote:December wrote:
If Bella were to die -- in the ordinary way -- to be with him, knowing that she would still exist as a ghost, would we feel that she was still going to be alive? That this wasn't dying? I agree that becoming a vampire seems different, but why?
Vampires, however, seem to skip the different plane part of that philosophy, in order to live eternally here on earth in the physical and spiritual form. In my mind, this is where the difference comes in. Vampires are a more realistic illusion of life, or human life, if you will, than that of a sprit or a ghost.
This caught my attention because it harbored back to my initial thought on perspective. I believe you are right in that the Cullen family almost thinks of themselves as ghost like...stuck forever in a doomed state. And Bella's perspective is completely different, she doesn't see it is death but more like a "change" in being. Is this because she is given a choice about it, that she is justifying the act as not a death but a rebirth? Where as because the Cullens had no choice it was indeed a death? I almost rather think that because the choice was not there for the Cullens that it was a death, being that they always see the situation as having given up a life, verses Bella who sees it as gaining a life. Odd what a difference just having a choice in the matter can change your perspective on life and death.
I think you're very right, Cocoa, and this is why Rosalie is so set against Bella becoming a vampire. Reading Rosalie's story gave me great insight as to why the Cullen's are wary of changing humans. She doesn't exactly hate her "life," but Rosalie wouldn't have chosen this path for herself. She wasn't able to experience many things humanity has to offer, and she can only watch from the sidelines. She's jealous that Bella has those chances, and angry that she's seemingly so willing to throw it all away.

Do you think there's ever feelings of resentment towards Carlisle from Edward, Esme or Emmett? We don't hear much inner monologue from the latter two ...
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dsolo
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Are Vampires Dead?

Post by dsolo »

Ghosts are non-corporeal, so they are not alive. Ghosts are also traditionally bound to areas that they visited while alive. Vampires don't have that restriction. This is just my opinion, of course. Again, the different points brought up are very interesting and well thought out.
dsolo
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Are Vampires Dead?

Post by dsolo »

Wow, by the time I posted to the ghost topic, there were a lot more interesting topics out there from Cocoa and Sparkling Diamond. re: Rosalie, I can kind of understand her resentment, but she's really being a bit petty. She didn't get her human dreams fulfilled, but she got Emmett and eternal beauty. As for children, she may or may not have been able to have them. I always wanted children, but was unable to have them and I'm fully human (at least, I assume I am). Rosalie needs to get over herself. As for Edward or Esme resenting Carlisle, I don't think so. Esme didn't have much of a life to regret and her feelings for Carlisle are probably on par with Bella's and Edward's. As for Edward, his genuine respect and admiration for Carlisle probably help mitigate his concern about being turned into a monster. Back on topic, the Cullens don't seem to think of themselves as dead, just unchanging physically.
mandustries
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Re: Are Vampires Dead?

Post by mandustries »

dsolo wrote:Wow, by the time I posted to the ghost topic, there were a lot more interesting topics out there from Cocoa and Sparkling Diamond. re: Rosalie, I can kind of understand her resentment, but she's really being a bit petty. She didn't get her human dreams fulfilled, but she got Emmett and eternal beauty. As for children, she may or may not have been able to have them. I always wanted children, but was unable to have them and I'm fully human (at least, I assume I am). Rosalie needs to get over herself. As for Edward or Esme resenting Carlisle, I don't think so. Esme didn't have much of a life to regret and her feelings for Carlisle are probably on par with Bella's and Edward's. As for Edward, his genuine respect and admiration for Carlisle probably help mitigate his concern about being turned into a monster. Back on topic, the Cullens don't seem to think of themselves as dead, just unchanging physically.
I totally agree that Rosalie is being petty. I thought she was totally vapid for most of the first two books, and that feeling still hasn't gone completely away. She's a good character, but limited. (sorry to get off topic-ish, but dsolo made a good point.)

Bringing this back around to the "Are they dead" topic, I know that Rosalie has Emmett and eternal beauty, but a part of her still feels dead, in the way that she's not able to have the things Bella does. She's not really "living" her life in the sense that she's not growing older, having babies, being married to a well-off man about town (man, she was vain!). Maybe if we knew more about her, she'd seem less to me like the only one of the Cullen's who's truly unhappy with the lot they were given.
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